soviet lack of anti armor disturbing

[spinkick]

So I get 4 t34's and they get smoked in the course of the battle. A couple tigers show up. What the hell do you do? Plink away with the AT guns? These poor guys. You cant even really sneak anyone up to them.

Do you keep your tanks way back most of the time?

[AttorneyAtWar]

So I get 4 t34's and they get smoked in the course of the battle. A couple tigers show up. What the hell do you do? Plink away with the AT guns? These poor guys. You cant even really sneak anyone up to them.

Do you keep your tanks way back most of the time?

If your talking about the mission I think you are, T-34-85's are sufficient enough to defeat both Tigers, especially at the ranges on that map.

[spinkick]

If your talking about the mission I think you are, T-34-85's are sufficient enough to defeat both Tigers, especially at the ranges on that map.

I must be engaging way too quickly or closly. Some flack guns took out two of them and a hidden tank gun the 3rd..

if you are thinking of the same one.

[Amizaur]

T-34/85 are not exactly match for Tiers, but are enough for good player to kill the Tigers - especially against an AI. I personlly killed two AI Tigers i scenario where I had only one T34/85 left - one was killed by AT gun, the second was immobilised and klled b Tiges when they arrived. Oe Tiger was killed easily from the flank, second one - I maneuvered from behind a cover at high speed to very close range, and it took a bit of luck to be successfull.

Use numerical advantage. Use advantageous positioning. Maneuver to the side, maneuver from both sides, maneuver to fight from close. It's a bit challenging - but it's good thing. Who would like it to be too easy ? And after all, you have chosen to play the soviet side, and you ave the very same problem the soviets had. Solve it.

[agusto]

T-34s vs. Tiger Is is still a better match than T-55s vs M1A2 Arbrams tanks, as we had it in CMSF .

[Michael Emrys]

Who would like it to be too easy?

[raises hand]

In warfare there is no such thing as too easy.

Michael

[SlowMotion]

I've read that in real encounters Soviets often used to shoot at Tiger's track. When it was lost from one side of the tank this caused the tank to turn before immobilising. This then allowed gunners to aim at the thinner side armor intead of the strongest front parts. It would be cool if this effect was simulated in the game.

[Michael Emrys]

I've read that in real encounters Soviets often used to shoot at Tiger's track. When it was lost from one side of the tank this caused the tank to turn before immobilising. This then allowed gunners to aim at the thinner side armor intead of the strongest front parts. It would be cool if this effect was simulated in the game.

I think it would take a pretty damn good gunner to confident of hitting a track on a moving tank.

Michael

[Peregrine]

So I get 4 t34's and they get smoked in the course of the battle. A couple tigers show up. What the hell do you do? Plink away with the AT guns? These poor guys. You cant even really sneak anyone up to them.

Do you keep your tanks way back most of the time?

I think I know the battle too and keeping them back doesn't really help too much and if anything you want to close the range. I think I lost all my tanks and 1 tiger survived. Still won the battle easily because of how the objectives were arranged. Was frustrating having the tiger driving around unmolested though.

[ZPB II]

I think it's all reasonably "balanced" in the sense that the Bazooka and the PIAT were somewhat crud. Better than nothing at all, but still. AFAIK in reality crazy Ivan would use the antitank rifles to shoot out prisms, vision blocks, cupolas, radio antennas and even plink away at the tracks but the AI in CM isn't sophisticated enough for point targeting so we just have to rely on blind luck when hail-firing.

Soviets enjoy a lot better vehicle mounted weaponry to deal with big cats, even the bread & butter T-34/85 is a threat to Tigers and Panthers frontally and King Tigers from the side.

Use AT rifles to button up and annoy tanks while you sneak antitank teams with RPG-43 AT grenades or pioneers to blow them up. You might even get lucky with a flamethrower.

As a sidenote, I have a feel that Panzershrecks are now more accurate than ever and feel like a real threat but this is just an itch in the bum with no substantial testing behind it.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

If all else fails try a Rotmistrov (think what really happened at Prochorovka) - advance rapidly to close the range and try to kill the Tigers with close range shots. On second thoughts this might turn out to be as "succesfull" as Rotmistrov actually turned out to be in the above battle. According to Nipe 5GTA lost 400+ tanks trying to implement these tactics.

So maybe not unless you really are desperate!

[db_zero]

I would think acT-34/85 is a better match against a Panther or Tiger than a Sherman. Lack of bazooka like weapon does hurt. I have killed a MarkIV in a close assault with infantry.

[JasonC]

Michael said "I think it would take a pretty damn good gunner to confident of hitting a track on a moving tank."

Panzer Lehr Panthers vs US M-10 TDs in the hedgerows, from "The Push to St. Lo" -

"...the leading tank broke through to fight a duel with an M-10 at a range of 120 yards. The Mark V was damaged by TD fire, but it returned a shot, hitting the TD and wounding or killing three members of the crew. The other M-10 then opened fire, finishing the Panther with two shots. Then, spotting another Mark V, *the TD fired ten rounds into the suspension system of the Panther*, which sideslipped helplessly against the bank on the east side of the road and hung there in a tangle of matted hedgerow and churned mud. The crews, who had left their tanks when they were hit, were tracked down by infantry and captured in a farmhouse in the vicinity."

When the range is close enough, no problem. Could that shooter have been effective just shooting at the Panther's side? Undoubtedly, but the gunner didn't know that, he had seen the other M-10 get KOed when its hits failed to penetrate the first Panther he KOed, and he didn't take chances on his shots bouncing off. He just pounded the low chassis, which he knew he could break to pieces.

[MengJiaoRedux]

If all else fails try a Rotmistrov (think what really happened at Prochorovka) - advance rapidly to close the range and try to kill the Tigers with close range shots. On second thoughts this might turn out to be as "succesfull" as Rotmistrov actually turned out to be in the above battle. According to Nipe 5GTA lost 400+ tanks trying to implement these tactics.

So maybe not unless you really are desperate!

5GTA only had t34s with 76mm guns, and they did stop the German thrust, so

they were successful, though not so much against Tigers.

[MikeyD]

There's that often-repeated saying (originating in an old movie NOT The Big Lebowski) some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you. The last time I had a Tiger I on the map I was holed from the side by an unseen enemy without having got off a shot the whole game.

[JasonC]

MikeyD - the bigger problem with that fairy tale is that the SS had only 4 Tigers running at that point. The AFVs that did the damage to the Russian tanks were Panzer IV longs, with a modest supplement of StuGs. That is why closing to 500 yards or less seemed like a sensible idea at the time. Not that it worked very well, but no, they weren't closing with Tigers. The Tigers were all in the workshops already.

[Michael Emrys]

Michael said "I think it would take a pretty damn good gunner to confident of hitting a track on a moving tank."

Panzer Lehr Panthers vs US M-10 TDs in the hedgerows, from "The Push to St. Lo" -

"...the leading tank broke through to fight a duel with an M-10 at a range of 120 yards. The Mark V was damaged by TD fire, but it returned a shot, hitting the TD and wounding or killing three members of the crew. The other M-10 then opened fire, finishing the Panther with two shots. Then, spotting another Mark V, *the TD fired ten rounds into the suspension system of the Panther*, which sideslipped helplessly against the bank on the east side of the road and hung there in a tangle of matted hedgerow and churned mud. The crews, who had left their tanks when they were hit, were tracked down by infantry and captured in a farmhouse in the vicinity."

When the range is close enough, no problem. Could that shooter have been effective just shooting at the Panther's side? Undoubtedly, but the gunner didn't know that, he had seen the other M-10 get KOed when its hits failed to penetrate the first Panther he KOed, and he didn't take chances on his shots bouncing off. He just pounded the low chassis, which he knew he could break to pieces.

Heh. I trust you took note that it took him ten shots to achieve the desired effect. And how many times during the war was this done? As you state, this was at somewhat close range too. As I am fond of saying, it was a big war and nearly anything you can imagine happened at least once. That doesn't make it commonplace.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

There's that often-repeated saying (originating in an old movie NOT The Big Lebowski) some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.

But is the bear Catholic? And if he is, does that mean you would be safe on Friday?

Michael

[svenkornie]

Well, i find it really stupid that ruskie commie infantry can't destroy anything but infantry.

[Wodin]

Well the German player has a similar problem with PIV's against the abundance of T 34 85mm. So really I think it's down to the player to put some brain power into it and try some sneaky tactics. It is tough though if the enemy has armour and you have little to take it out with.

[womble]

Well, i find it really stupid that ruskie commie infantry can't destroy anything but infantry.

That's what they had organic ATGs for. Apparently. And ATRs for the light stuff. The Italians and Germans face the same problem in Sicily: no Shreck/Faust yet and ATRs are obsolete. And AFAIK, their TH teams don't have shaped charge grenades like Soviet ones do.

I guess we gamer folk run up against the problem more because we end up putting ourselves in situations which the Russian TO wasn't designed to deal with: a lone platoon of Russian infantry defending against a platoon of Germans backed up by a Panther, say. I'm pretty sure the Russian Big Book O' Doctrine had a line in it somewhere saying "There's no such thing as a single platoon."

[Michael Emrys]

If you come to the party, bring lots of friends.

Michael

[db_zero]

Well the German player has a similar problem with PIV's against the abundance of T 34 85mm. So really I think it's down to the player to put some brain power into it and try some sneaky tactics. It is tough though if the enemy has armour and you have little to take it out with.

I'm finding that at long range-over 800 meters the Superior optics on the MKIV makes a big difference.

[MikeyD]

I wonder how normal it is to have Soviet infantry assaulting enemy lines without at least some SU-76s standing overwatch. But then again, small unit actions this scale during an offensive this large probably anything you can dream up must've happened at least once.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

The SU-76 was the go to AFV for supporting infantry attacks, freeing the pricier and far more capable tanks for exploitation. Heavies were for the breakthrough attack. Indeed, the Germans labeled the heavy AFV regiments, tanks and SPs alike, Durchbruch Regiment. Breakthrough regiment.

Regards,

John Kettler