If this is real...

[Saferight]

Then it has to be some of the crazy war footage i've seen.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e24_1397063043

[Erwin]

Reminiscent of Stalingrad?

[Saferight]

Reminiscent of Stalingrad?

Ya or a game of wack a mole.

[Mace]

Campers just kill game play! *mad*

[John Kettler]

Saferight,

F1 grenade. Frag out! That would take care of the problem. With hand grenades readily available, I do find it odd they're not being used--at least in footage I've seen to date.

I've seen tons of combat footage, but nothing to rival that for closeness while employing firearms. Would say the Syrian soldier is winning the suppression exchange.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ScoutPL]

Eh, a grenade in that close proximity with nothing but a pile of stones for cover would kill all participants, including (probably) the camera man. A US grenade anyway, you never know what you are going to get with one manufactured in the east.

This is a perfect example of the sort of amateur warfighting we ran into constantly (at least early on) in Iraq and Afghanistan. Eventually we killed off the really brave (and amateur) fighters, leaving us with a bunch of bomb makers.

Just another reason we don't need to get involved. We could stop the fighting in a matter of weeks, but then we would be back dodging IEDs and snipers for 10 years while we tried to rebuild the govt. Only to have the extremists voted into office as soon as we withdrew. Yeah, give me some more of that!

[Lethaface]

Without context it is hard to say what happened before and after the fight.

Apart from the movie I think 'we could stop the fighting in a matter of weeks' is a little naive. 'You guys' (or should I say we?) could stop 'it' permanently it in a few hours , but going in conventionally there will be A LOT of fighting going on for years, like you said yourself. Asymmetrical warfare is still war for those living in the warzone. Any intervention should be on behalf of the people, right? ;D

When viewed purely militarily I guess that given the two year experience 'bonus' the remaining soldiers of the Syrian army and other belligerents are not all that amateurish. Just look at CMSF (or 2006) to see what small groups of Syrian special forces or properly armed and trained insurgents (Hezbollah) can do to western armies. IMO it's not only 10 years of snipers and IEDs whats stopping any ground intervention. Do you think intervening in Syria will be like Thunder Run 2?

[ScoutPL]

Based on personal experience a poorly trained and equipped insurgent force, regular army, national guard (we'll call these tier two or three) can not stand toe to toe with a well trained, well led, exceedingly well equipped modern army (referred to as tier one). Whether it be US, Brit, Canadian, Polish, French or whomever. I would argue the Russians (their main force units) are so close to tier two that they dont really fit into tier one at all.

I saw it over and over. Numerically superior tier three force concentrates locally, armed with machineguns and RPGs, perhaps even a few armored vehicles and gets obliterated. Usually with the casualty ratio astronomically in favor of of the tier one force.

Which is why in both Iraq and Afghanistan, after a few years of extremely hard knocks the Iraqi insurgents and the Taliban stopped engaging in open warfare and went underground. Only raising their collective heads when they felt assured of a local victory (which even then they rarely accomplished and never without significant losses).

I totally agree with you that Syria would drag on for years. As a COIN op. We could stop open warfare fairly quickly. Simply be killing anyone whop tried to stand against us, as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. It may sound harsh but believe me, its that simple.

Let me reiterate, I am talking about open warfare, not insurgent type activities where there are actual enemy attempts to keep from ever being ID'd. Because being ID'd usually led to a flash bang going off next to your head at 3am and a one way ride in a Blackhawk.

[db_zero]

Scout hit the nail smack on the head. Sounds like he may have learned somethings the hard way.

I was lucky and learned them the easy way. I spent part of my teen life growing up in the Middle East as an ex-pat and you see and learn things you'll never quite comprehend out of a book, TV or any other way.

Conventionally we rule, but once you get into the COIN phase its a different story I would imagine and you're fighting on their turf that they grew up in and know. Throw in the language, cultural and religious differences and its a situation I would not want to be in.

It was quirky enough being there as a Westerner in the best of times. Being a westerner there when the natives are restless, don't want or appreciate you being there would suck big time if you ask me-especially when they shoot at you and set off IEDs.

Unfortunately being the cynical person who's may have seen too much I doubt we can stay out of things completely.

There are too many unsaid and unspoken interconnections. The money, power and influence trail is very complex.

The rest of the world has become dependent on the US being the global robocop and that has created dynamics of its own.

If it were up to me I would avoid as much interaction as I could and let them go on killing each other like they have been for centuries. There is a reason why dictators have ruled for as long as they have-and yes you spend endless treasure, lives and times building democracy and what you may end up getting is a bunch of fanatics elected for all your troubles.

From what Scout has said it sound like things haven't really changed much. It was Medieval back in the day when I was there. I tell people it was like stepping into a time machine and going back to the 15th century.

Sounds like they may have the internet, twitter and other amenities that didn't exist when I was there, but also sounds like the mindset and mentality of the masses hasn't really advanced past what we might can called the enlightened period? Heck for all I know it could still be stuck back in the 15th century.

[Saferight]

Wasn't my intention for this to go in this direction but what the heck here is my 2 cents. A war in Syria would be very different than Iraq and Astan in both the symmetric and asymmetric aspects for the US. In very few good ways i presume.

I believe our country could beat just about any military in the middle east and just about the whole world, but i don't think we have the money and stomach now or will any time soon for anything but a very limited conflict anywhere even for the noblest causes.

So lets see how much longer and honestly what good this insane defense spending does us. I think being top dog in that department is putting a strain that shall come to a head at some point in the near future.

[db_zero]

Yes getting back on track...

is this real or staged?

[sburke]

Yes getting back on track...

is this real or staged?

Staged- by Monty Python. C'mon look closely, you think anyone else would think to do that?

[Saferight]

Im kinda leaning towards it being real. Towards the end it seems like the SAA soldier gets a hit on one or both of the fighters. Maybe he got away as well since theres no footage of them celebrating over his body.

[agusto]

Here is a much longer version of the footage:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=36e_1397125294

The first and the second videos both show some of the footage we have aleady seen and some of the prelude.

In the third video you can see the SAA soldier beeing taken prisioner. You can also see corpses lying around. Probably a small SAA unit, a patrol or something similar, was ambushed and overrun. 4th video shows a bit of interrogation and then it looks like they are about to start torturing him or executing him. The video ends though before it becomes clear what will happen next.

EDIT: Some higher quality footage of scene where the insurgentgs take their prisioner;

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=204_1397119179

[Lethaface]

Wasn't my intention for this to go in this direction but what the heck here is my 2 cents. A war in Syria would be very different than Iraq and Astan in both the symmetric and asymmetric aspects for the US. In very few good ways i presume.

I believe our country could beat just about any military in the middle east and just about the whole world, but i don't think we have the money and stomach now or will any time soon for anything but a very limited conflict anywhere even for the noblest causes.

So lets see how much longer and honestly what good this insane defense spending does us. I think being top dog in that department is putting a strain that shall come to a head at some point in the near future.

Well obviously any tank division Syria moves out in the open will be obliterated pretty quickly, same like other large troop movements. But in prepared terrain with light infantry/asymmetric tactics Hezbollah managed to thwart of Israel in 2006 inspite of 0 air defence. Obviously the conventional war can be won but at what costs? I think way higher than Iraq.

[Saferight]

Thanks agusto you filled in the blanks on this one. I don't exactly understand his decision to be taken prisoner. I realize death is a scary thing to have to face and finally accept. i know i would not want to be in those shoes ever, but against a enemy like he was facing the better choice is clear.

[sburke]

Personally I think the time where the western powers could intervene has come and gone. I don't believe we could stop the fighting, only damp it down. About the only option I see as maybe having a chance is the Arab League assembling a mixed Shiite/Sunni force and moving in. Anyone else is just gonna be another target. Initially the religious aspect wasn't as strong as the political movement. That train left the station a while ago. Now you have guys that even Al Qaeda considers as too extreme doing crucifixions. Crucifixions for crying out loud! Apparently there is video with people strolling by as if it were nothing out of the ordinary. WTF?!

[Saferight]

Now you have guys that even Al Qaeda considers as too extreme doing crucifixions. Crucifixions for crying out loud! Apparently there is video with people strolling by as if it were nothing out of the ordinary. WTF?!

The really scary thing is the gains this cancer has made in Iraq.

http://www.vice.com/read/ISIS-Iraq-jihadists-Anbar-Fallujah-Bagdhad

[agusto]

Here is some more crazy footage:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=17f_1399897470

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b36_1395944414

I bet none of you has ever seen a Mig-21/Mig-29 attack run from this perspective. And now that think of it, i hope none of us ever will!

[Skwabie]

woh... vivid. I'm amazed at the calmness they said allah ackbar when the Gsh301 strafed their position....:eek:

[agusto]

Barrel bomb attack, filmed by the crew of an SAF Mi-8:

At 4:50 the airman lights the bombs fuze with his cigarette before he throws it out of the helicopter...

I almost cant believe the absurdities of this conflict, probably they are lucky if they even hit anywhere near the town they were aiming for.

[A Canadian Cat]

I saw it over and over. Numerically superior tier three force concentrates locally, armed with machineguns and RPGs, perhaps even a few armored vehicles and gets obliterated. Usually with the casualty ratio astronomically in favor of of the tier one force.

I think there will be a lot of agreement with that. Frankly it is one of the reasons the original CMSF did not interest me much - just my personal preference.

Based on personal experience a poorly trained and equipped insurgent force, regular army, national guard (we'll call these tier two or three) can not stand toe to toe with a well trained, well led, exceedingly well equipped modern army (referred to as tier one). Whether it be US, Brit, Canadian, Polish, French or whomever. I would argue the Russians (their main force units) are so close to tier two that they dont really fit into tier one at all.

My bold. I think this is essentially the root to the coming debate once the new modern CM title comes out. There will be those who say force X is too good and those that say the same force X is way too good. It is going to be interesting. Again I have no actual military experience (sure I drove trucks for a while but I hardly think qualified me to say much of anything) so I will be mostly sitting that debate out. But I am curious what kind of evidence is there to be found regarding the skill sets of various armies? Is there some research that can be done to gain some insight? I am interested in learning more.

My only real world context to shed light on this is my Father's experience. His background was an infantry officer with the Canadian forces from the 60s to the early 90s. He was a company commander and eventually a Battalion 2IC before moving to staff jobs and working to run various operations from HQ for many years. So his impressions of the then Soviet armed forces were based on the intelligence of the time and were up to date when he embarked on one of his more interesting assignments. He was one of a handful of Canadian officers who were part of the UN monitoring mission during the Soviet force withdrawal in Afghanistan. So, he got to see them working up close for real which he had not seen before. Of course this was not during combat situations but during a withdraw. His impression was that they were better lead, better equipped and more competent that NATO was aware of. His impressions were of significant interest and he spent a bit of time upon his return visiting various representatives of the US military and intelligence community.

My point being how much do we really know about how good force X really is? And is that information correct? And are those that question it really correct in their critique?

[Sgt Joch]

On whether the Russians, or at least their elite forces like the VDV, are tier one or tier two is an ongoing debate. Nothing has been ruled in or ruled out.

As to their current capabilities, much is of course classified, but there are some good open source articles, i.e.:

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1096

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1069

[A Canadian Cat]

As to their current capabilities, much is of course classified,

Indeed - I don't want to see anyone get into trouble over distributing information:)

but there are some good open source articles, i.e.:

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1096

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=1069

Excellent thanks just the kind of thing I was looking for. My searches did not take me to that site at all - Google is too heavily weighted towards news sites sometimes.

[agusto]

Is body armor standard issue among russian troops? If yes, is the quality compareable to state of the art US body armor? Is body armor going to be modeled in CMBS? I think it is in CMSF, but i am not sure about how it affects game mechanics.