Tanks still spotting too well ?

[Baneman]

Now I know that one of the features of MG and 2.12 is that buttoned tanks are supposed to have their spotting chance reduced.

But it seems that unbuttoned tanks still spot too well when on the move - not to mention their telepathically quick responses.

Example

( this is from the Allied MG campaign battle 3, thus this example shows mild spoiler material ).

A moving tank clears the LoS-blocking smoke and flames of a burning AC and instantly spots enemy infantry in foxholes in the woods behind a hedge at 330m.

The moment the enemy icon appears, the turret begins to slew and 5 seconds later ( the tank having stopped ), it takes out the enemy with an HE round.

Did I mention that I have a couple of infantry ( an AC crew who also have binoculars ) 80m closer to the enemy line ? They've been there for the previous 2 turns. They saw nothing.

Here you can see the respective LoS lines to the enemy position.

Not only are my infantry "spotters" closer to the enemy, but they have a theoretically better view.

So my point is that despite the difficulty of holding binoculars to your eyes while in a moving tank, a TC is still able to spot in 1 second what stationary infantry could not in over 2 minutes.

And in the name of realism, would it not be possible to build in a 1 or 2 second reaction time before the turret begins to bear on the target, to simulate communication between TC and gunner ?

I do enjoy CM immensely, this sort of thing is just a niggle, but a persistent niggle nevertheless.

[slysniper]

Yes, tanks can still spot and respond too easily.

But I see them drive past my troops all the time now and not spot a thing. So it has improved over what it use to be.

For your example there is plenty of issues as to how you are judging it.

The infantry lying on the ground using the Binos should not be able to see much, face it, pretty hard for them to see through all the vegetation they are lying down in. So nothing wrong there, so nothing to compare with since if they were elevated and had a clear line of sight, maybe they spot the enemy also very easy.

Second, Your playing against the AI. So I know them units your tank spotted are not set to Hide. Play someone HtoH and see if you spot them hiding at 300 meters in these conditions.

Last, even if the rest worked perfect, then there is the issues with foxholes in general and spotting. So maybe it is not the tank issue, it could be the Foxhole issue.

Anyway, was it really worth bringing it up again. Like we should all know the game limitations at this point, right.

[SlowMotion]

I would love to see such crew comms delays added to tanks. Even if technology allows some things to happen many changes in tank state involve communication between people and they always slow things down and include possibility of error.

[Baneman]

Yes, tanks can still spot and respond too easily.

...

For your example there is plenty of issues as to how you are judging it.

The infantry lying on the ground using the Binos should not be able to see much, face it, pretty hard for them to see through all the vegetation they are lying down in. So nothing wrong there, so nothing to compare with since if they were elevated and had a clear line of sight, maybe they spot the enemy also very easy.

Second, You're playing against the AI. So I know them units your tank spotted are not set to Hide. Play someone HtoH and see if you spot them hiding at 300 meters in these conditions.

Last, even if the rest worked perfect, then there is the issues with foxholes in general and spotting. So maybe it is not the tank issue, it could be the Foxhole issue.

Anyway, was it really worth bringing it up again. Like we should all know the game limitations at this point, right.

Well, yes, it is worth bringing up if we hope for improvements ( and BFC are pretty good at improvements ).

Also, in the above example, the infantry are lying on a raised berm, clear of all vegetation ( I thought the screenshot made this clear ) and practically at the same level as the TC

( since the tank is hull-down behind the berm ).

True, the enemy are not set to HIDE. I realise this would make them harder to spot overall, but how does this affect infantry not spotting what a TC can spot - they're "not hidden" to both in this example. Ditto for the "foxhole issue" - you're implying that it only works for tanks ?

And yes, I realise that the gods of random numbers are such that it's possible for a TC to spot something before an infantryman. But within 1 second !?

[SlowMotion]

IRL it's much easier to spot movement than static objects. I wonder if CM's spotting algorithm takes this into account? For example if those spotted soldiers were just standing in their fox holes against similar colored background that should be clearly more difficult to spot than if they were running in the forest.

[Rocky Balboa]

I would think also that foxholes would provide some kind of concealment bonus. Certainly if troops can take the time to dig the hole, they would added a little camouflage as well. However, this incident might just be an outlier and purely anecdotal.

Maybe someone moved or the TC caught the flash of sunlight reflected off of a pair of binos .... Much testing would needto be done to see if there is a real issue here.

[LeeW]

What is the status of crew being used as scouts? The last I remember, was an outcry against this, so their spotting ability was reduced to discourage the use of them as scouts. True or not?

[womble]

Also, in the above example, the infantry are lying on a raised berm, clear of all vegetation ( I thought the screenshot made this clear ) and practically at the same level as the TC ( since the tank is hull-down behind the berm ).

I don't know whether it might be relevant, but I'd've thought the TC was a fair bit higher than the berm if the tank is only "partial hull down" using said earthwork. That said, it's not such a surprise the line is grey at that point, since one or both of the driver and radio/bow gunner might have their views obscured, even at "partial hull down".

One thing that stands out to me is that the LOS for the dismounted crew seems to intersect some lumps in the ground that the Sherman's grey line does not; the tank is "only" peering through some Brush and Low Bocage...

Is the AC crew an HQ unit at all?

Which comments are only intended to help explain why the infantry can't see diddly, not how come the TC spotted the threat so fast, which does seem a bit odd.

True, the enemy are not set to HIDE.

I think this is a bit of a red herring really. I don't think most players would have those foxhole troops Hide-ing, and in the end, they're 300m away, in the shade of a wood, behind vegetation concealment with only their helmets and eyes showing until they elect to employ their weapons.

And yes, I realise that the gods of random numbers are such that it's possible for a TC to spot something before an infantryman. But within 1 second !?

We know they've changed some of the parameters for tank spotting. We (think we) "know" there's a 7s spotting cycle, so even if the objective was standing in the open waving a big yellow and black flag in one hand and a magnesium flare in the other, you'd be a bit lucky to achieve the spot in less than a third of average time. I still worry that there's a "roll a 6" (where "6" is an arbitrary number that's a bit too frequent) minimum chance of seeing something that's theoretically in LOS, no matter how many "negatives" you have. And being in shade simply isn't a factor, AIUI.

[Childress]

If not too rattled, why should a tank crew not be suitable for spotting? Esp if the commander is still around with his binocs.

[Vanir Ausf B]

What is the status of crew being used as scouts? The last I remember, was an outcry against this, so their spotting ability was reduced to discourage the use of them as scouts. True or not?

Tank crews dismounting to scout ahead is valid real world tactic.

[Baneman]

Tank crews dismounting to scout ahead is valid real world tactic.

Which is why I used them ( although an armoured car crew in this case ). Since they had a pair of binocs and were a recon unit to boot, it seemed reasonable. If there was in fact, a degrading for crews as LeeW suggests, I wasn't aware of it.

Now, as Rocky says, it's an outlier, but almost everything we note in our games as potentially anomalous will necessarily be one-offs. All we can do is raise the question ( as long as we don't do that in a frothing "BFC must fix !" way ).

In this case I thought it was worth mentioning/discussion since

a) the tank was moving when it made the spot.

b) the extraordinary rapidity of the spot.

c) the enemy doing, in fact, pretty much everything that has been suggested on these boards for remaining unspotted viz. not in the front AS of the forest; with some visible undergrowth amongst the trees up to and including a hedge.

d) the fact that there was something to compare the tank's spot against - ie. the infantry spotters who had roughly 2mins 45secs observation on the area with no joy ( that's a lot of 7s cycles ).

[Vanir Ausf B]

Which is why I used them ( although an armoured car crew in this case ). Since they had a pair of binocs and were a recon unit to boot, it seemed reasonable. If there was in fact, a degrading for crews as LeeW suggests, I wasn't aware of it.

I'm not aware of it either. I suspect he is referring to a change made to the moral of bailed tank crews.

Now, as Rocky says, it's an outlier, but almost everything we note in our games as potentially anomalous will necessarily be one-offs. All we can do is raise the question ( as long as we don't do that in a frothing "BFC must fix !" way ).

Tanks that are moving have much worse spotting than stationary tanks, at least when spotting other tanks. But I've only tested it with buttoned tanks, and never against infantry.

I've had my own share of WTF moments and sometimes it's in the opposite direction. For example, in a recent PBEM I had an infantry team moving at Quick speed spot an enemy tank sitting motionless behind bocage that had not moved or fired (it was on the first turn of the game). The tank was over 1 kilometer away :confused:

But since the "hull down" bug was discovered Steve has declared any further discussion of spotting issues to be null and void so I'm not doing anything with it until CMRT at the earliest.

[Erwin]

Surely we all know by know that the LOS system is very fickle. A few inches very often makes a huge difference re what can or cannot be seen (or targeted for that matter). LOS determination is a game in itself since it's often not at all intuitive.

[slysniper]

I agree that the tank should not be able to spot the infantry like is shown in the example.

But I also think tanks cannot spot enemy tanks fast enough many times within the game.

So for me that is opposite timing issues for spotting. So can one be fixed without making the other worse. Only the designer knows

But sighting in the game does not mimic real life sighting well, has not from the first and still does not to this day. So just pointing out one more post isn't going to change the system. They can only do so much and I think we see the game as it is going to stay for the present time.

[Erwin]

"But sighting in the game does not mimic real life sighting well, has not from the first and still does not to this day."

Very true. It's often forgotten that this is "just" a game, and we need to learn to live with its (many) compromises that make it a very good game but not a simulation.

[Ashez]

My experience is opposite. My tanks never spot infantry -unless at point blank. And the only maingun fire against infantry I am able to get is area targeted.

[Pak40]

An unbuttoned tank should always spot better than an infantry unit in a prone position. The commander with his head out of the hatch at a height about 10 feet above ground has a distinct advantage over someone hugging the dirt. Even though the scout unit is on the berm the Tank Commander is higher and, IIRC, has binoculars also. This slight height avantage could mean everything when having to peer across the low bocage.

Yes, the tank is moving, which only lowers it's chance spotting. A roll of 20 comes up sometimes in a 1d20.

Two things that you're not mentioning in this picture:

1. Did the spotted unit fire? - that will increase it's possibility of being spotted.

2. How many enemy units are NOT being spotted by the tank? I know there are several units on that tree line - I've played that battle before. Just because the tank spots one while moving doesn't mean that the system's broke.

[Skwabie]

But I also think tanks cannot spot enemy tanks fast enough many times within the game.

No sh*t. I think there're enough times when I want to pull my hair out on that... "There's a tank 50 meters directly in front you! Why can't you see and shoot it instead of sitting there for half a minute doing nothing:mad:"

[c3k]

I haven't tried to duplicaye this, but remember that units are polled for spotting at different intervals and at different times.

[TimoS.]

Another Question is: "Did other Units (possible Infantry unit 3 Tiles beside that Tank) allready told the Tank where to spot with an "?"Inf-Mark through the C2 Line?

That is also helping the Tankcommander to Spot that enemy Infantry way faster.

I think that Foxholes and Trenches are also spotted to early. In H2H Games the defending Player is mostly hiding behind that Foxholes/Trenches because they tell your Position way to early.

On the other Hand the Hiding Command is to powerful imho. There should be the chance for Attacker to get a "?" Mark after Watching a Target Arc Sector with Binos and Multi-Eyeballs for Several Minutes. Not the Exact Spot but a roughly Mark in an Area around the Target.

Same goes for Soundcontact. If you Hide in good cover (Houses/Trees/Bushes) the Attacker has just two Options

1. Shoot Positions all the Time with lots of Fire where Enemy could be wich are TONS of Places especially on Fluid H2H Play.

2. Get Scout Teams out and sacrifice some to make the Enemy raise their Heads

[womble]

Another Question is: "Did other Units (possible Infantry unit 3 Tiles beside that Tank) allready told the Tank where to spot with an "?"Inf-Mark through the C2 Line?

That is also helping the Tankcommander to Spot that enemy Infantry way faster.

I don't think we'll ever know why that situation worked as it did.

On the other Hand the Hiding Command is to powerful imho. There should be the chance for Attacker to get a "?" Mark after Watching a Target Arc Sector with Binos and Multi-Eyeballs for Several Minutes. Not the Exact Spot but a roughly Mark in an Area around the Target.

All that "Hide" does is tell the target to keep its head down, as its priority. Basically the pTruppen just spend most of their time "Hiding", rather than "Spotting" (which is what they'd do by default while idle and stationary). This means they spend more time prone and take better advantage of the available concealment. If they're told to Hide in the middle of a road, they'll get spotted. If they're told to Hide behind a crest, they can be functionally invisible (apart from if they pop their heads up when they take the occasional "Spotting" action).

Same goes for Soundcontact. If you Hide in good cover (Houses/Trees/Bushes) the Attacker has just two Options...

Sucks to be the attacker, hey?

1. Shoot Positions all the Time with lots of Fire where Enemy could be wich are TONS of Places especially on Fluid H2H Play.

Part of the challenge of attacking is finding or creating routes where your firepower can be concentrated against narrow sections of the enemy, so there aren't "tons" of places that you need to suppress. And still you're not going to find them all, most of the time, so every time you move there's a chance some bandit is going to pop up and kill some of your men. That's realistic.

"...should be the chance..."

"Should" is a loaded word. "Why?" is the loaded answer. In this case, what I mean is "Why do you think it should? Is it because you think the game would be more fun, or because it would make the game more realistic? Personally I can't see why it would make the game more realistic, and that's always going to be the route BFC will follow.

[TimoS.]

Sucks to be the attacker, hey?

If there is no other arguing against Soundcontacts on close Range i would be glad if they put it in.

Part of the challenge of attacking is finding or creating routes where your firepower can be concentrated against narrow sections of the enemy, so there aren't "tons" of places that you need to suppress. And still you're not going to find them all, most of the time, so every time you move there's a chance some bandit is going to pop up and kill some of your men. That's realistic.

But we get OT. It was just about Tanks spotting too well. I dont think so. If Infantry tells them on the C2 Line and they get a rough guess where to look at? Why not?

Bandits pop up if you didnt recon well is realistic yes. But you dont stand a chance on even green Troops that they get their Heads up early and defend their lives because of fear getting sourrounded. Absolutly NO CHANCE to spot Troops behind a small bushline/house if your opponent press the "Hide"-Button. Thats my Point.

I get your Point. In Cover they should be never ever be seen if there is no LOS but thats unrealistic on close Ranges. People talk, make noises etc. if you watch/listen a House/Bushes etc. for a long Time on short distances (up to 50-100m) wit multi ears/eyeballs for many Minutes, there should be at least the chance to get a CLUE that there is at least SOMETHING

Maybe some Moral Breaks or TacAI trying to Fall back if too much "?" Marks pop up close to their Position and they are unexperience Troops?

Troops in fear of sourrounding (especially Green one) did fall back very often and even more if C2 was cut off.

At the Moment you just get rough marks/soundcontacts only if the Unit is moving.

Dont get me wrong. It shouldnt be easy to spot units hiding. But the Main Part of Recon, to prevent that what you described, isnt possible with that Hide Command.

In Singleplayer its no Problem. AI starts firing back most of the Time if you "Recon by Fire" but in H2H really annoying and not all that realistic.

[womble]

But you dont stand a chance on even green Troops that they get their Heads up early and defend their lives because of fear getting sourrounded. Absolutly NO CHANCE to spot Troops behind a small bushline/house if your opponent press the "Hide"-Button. Thats my Point.

Your point is factually incorrect. You do still stand a chance. Hiding troops pop their heads up now and then, to maintain a basic situational awareness. That can be spotted. It's proportionately less likely since there are a fifth the number of noggins poking up above the wall at any one time, and they aren't always there to be seen, but they can be seen.

if you watch/listen a House/Bushes etc. for a long Time on short distances (up to 50-100m) wit multi ears/eyeballs for many Minutes, there should be at least the chance to get a CLUE that there is at least SOMETHING

You think, in the average ambient noise environment of a battlefield, that you stand a single solitary chance of hearing infantry 50m away who know you're there to kill them and have been told to hide their presence, that they need not risk themselves (yet - but they don't know that)? That's just dreaming. Sure, that sort of discipline does break down eventually, especially with raw troops, but CM's scale means that such timescales for observation are rarely available, and really, that sort of close target reconnaisance isn't what the simulation is designed to cover.

...TacAI trying to Fall back if too much "?" Marks pop up close to their Position...

One of the weaknesses of the current AI is its situational awareness. At some point, they'll get that in, but don't hold your breath.

...the Main Part of Recon, to prevent that what you described, isnt possible with that Hide Command...

While time spent on recon is never wasted, it should never be 100%. If the Hide-ers are poor quality troops, recon by fire will often get a result, and might even just break them out of their position. Not being able to fire back makes poor troops very squirrelly, in my experience.

[TimoS.]

You think, in the average ambient noise environment of a battlefield, that you stand a single solitary chance of hearing infantry 50m away

Yes i do. If there isnt much fire going on totally hiding/be quiet over long time is very hard and should depend on the Enemys Experience. Imagine an Enemy Squad lying 30m in front of you trying to hide. Over Time you should at least have some Chance to spot/hear them. As it is right now the chance for an Ambush even with alot of Recon effort is to low.

I didnt say it should be 100%. But at least have a Chance.

About that Situational Awareness i agree with you.