Urban Bone

[Childress]

You could efficiently target the enemy with the tube only and remain unspotted as long as the accompanying riflemen wouldn't open fire and make a lot of noise. Currently this is not possible in game.

You can give the unit a restrictive Cover Arc. The mortar will continue firing without the riflemen. I think.

[bisu]

You can give the unit a restrictive Cover Arc. The mortar will continue firing without the riflemen. I think.

I thought Cover Arc and Target orders were mutually exclusive..

[Holman]

I thought Cover Arc and Target orders were mutually exclusive..

They are. Giving a cover arc to a firing unit will replace whatever other target orders it has.

I like the idea of mortar teams not firing their rifles except in mid-to-close-range self-defense. Giving away their position with rifle fire should be a definite no-no.

I seem to recall a similar problem in CMSF: anti-tank teams ordered to target a vehicle would open up with rifles while the launcher lined up a shot. Often, the tank would see the threat and either kill the team or reverse out of sight before the rocket could launch.

[Pak40]

The problem I have mentioned was already discussed before:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=110210

Maybe that makes it more clear what I have in mind. It is not so difficult to imagine such encounter especially in Normandy: a light mortar setup behind a berm of a bocage , and 250-300 m away suspected enemy behind another bocage strip. You could efficiently target the enemy with the tube only and remain unspotted as long as the accompanying riflemen wouldn't open fire and make a lot of noise. Currently this is not possible in game.

I think it's quite clear that this will now be possible in the game. Even without the new change, it was still quite effective to put your 60mm mortars on a hedgerow and pummel with direct fire, even at distances less than 250m. Just don't put it on the line by itself because then it will be the only target.

[Childress]

They are. Giving a cover arc to a firing unit will replace whatever other target orders it has.

You sure in the case of mortars and their team? I'm not talking about Direct Fire but an artillery plot.

[Sim1943]

Steve

Thanks for the quick bones.

I asked this last year, and last week, in this thread BFC: Any plans to bring back "QB Combined Arms"? , but are there any plans to bring back some form of the Combined Arms QB Setting from CMx1?

Thanks in advance

Chad

[A Canadian Cat]

You sure in the case of mortars and their team? I'm not talking about Direct Fire but an artillery plot.

The change that BFC put in *has* to do with direct fire. Right now if you have a mortar team in a spot with good concealment and you give them a target order beyond the effective rifle range the rifle men in the mortar team will still open fire with their rifles. That action often is what gives the mortar team's location away. With this change, that will happen less often.

If you have a mortar team performing indirect fire at some thing that they can actually see - well - stop doing that. I have no idea what this change will do for mortars firing indirectly but I suspect not a whole lot.

[Childress]

The change that BFC put in *has* to do with direct fire. Right now if you have a mortar team in a spot with good concealment and you give them a target order beyond the effective rifle range the rifle men in the mortar team will still open fire with their rifles.

I'm confused (shut up, Emrys ). So mortar (or MG) ammo bearer teams can no longer be pressed into service as line infantry (which we all do) under certain circumstances?

[Holman]

I'm confused (shut up, Emrys ). So mortar (or MG) ammo bearer teams can no longer be pressed into service as line infantry (which we all do) under certain circumstances?

In this thread's post #73, it's left uncertain. Steve says he doesn't recall whether only mortar team members or also separate bearer teams are affected by this change.

[Battlefront.com]

These improvements have nothing to do with firing indirectly because by definition the crews can't fire at a target they can't see.

As for pressing weapons crews into service as infantry, it only makes them less effective at ranges. For last ditch defenses they could be a bit more effective because of better ammo conservation. And since weapons crews would not be used in the offensive role in real life this is fine from a historical standpoint.

Steve

[Childress]

What about defense? So, say in a QB, the player needs to remember his mortar bearer teams, which have no shells, will function as short range infantry?

[Battlefront.com]

I don't recall what v2.01 is like, but if Ammo Bearers are lacking mortar shells then that's a bug. I don't think you'll find that in v2.10 until after you've fired off all your ammo. In that case withdraw them from harm's way.

Steve

[Pak40]

What about defense? So, say in a QB, the player needs to remember his mortar bearer teams, which have no shells, will function as short range infantry?

He just addressed this.

For last ditch defenses they could be a bit more effective because of better ammo conservation.

[hobo]

Thank you for the mortar team fix. I have had a couple scenarios screwed because my perfectly positioned and hidden mortar team had their cover blown before they could deploy their mortar because one of the crew got bored and started taking pot shots at the juicy ATG targets.

[A Canadian Cat]

What about defense? So, say in a QB, the player needs to remember his mortar bearer teams, which have no shells, will function as short range infantry?

Mortars are often given direct fire orders at fairly long ranges and in the current game the other crew members would also fire their rifles at ranges that were pretty ineffective. In other words they would often be firing at ranges that your line infantry would not be (unless you told them too). I see that Steve is indicating that they might not fire at the same ranges as regular line infantry but how big the difference is remains to be seen or discussed. If they hold their fire to under 200m then you will not really suffer because your line infantry should probably not be firing their rifles at ranges much over that anyway. However if the cut off range is 50m they will not be much good fighting along side regular infantry.

[warrenpeace]

The change with the rocket fired weapons and houses would seem to present some difficult decisions to the Tac AI. Do teams always fire when in buildings? Does the tac AI take into account how many other troops are around that might be suppressed or injured? Does it take into account hit and damage percentages in making the decision? Seems like a really challenging question with regards to the AI.

[womble]

I'd contend that it's the player's job to make sure that two of those factors do not need to be "considered" by the AI.

AT teams "should", optimally, be operating detached from other infantry, for fire control and stealth purposes, so damage to other elements shouldn't often be a consideration.

Hit and damage probabilities should be controlled by the player setting cover arcs to inhibit firing at ranges that have little payoff or at target aspects that are invulnerable. If a "surprise" situation comes up (a Tiger appears unexpectedly front-on to a zook team for example inside their Covered Armour Arc) where you "guessed" wrong, and they fire, to no effect, betraying their position, well, that's just the fortunes of war, and desperate, panicy dogfaces doing the wrong thing (not that there's really any "good" option...).

I would hope that the TacAI takes into account the soft factors of the team when assessing whether they'd take the shot: perhaps veterans would stay covert when presented with that impenetrable front, and low morale troops would be less likely to risk scorching, with high morale greens most likely to fire when they should be hiding, and get scorched to boot.

[Fuser]

Man, sure this game is getting better and BETTER, I look back to CMSF v 1.00 times, and well, it looks like we are back on track now,...I trust BFC, I know they love CM so much they can't stop improving it now, Thanks for the bone, BTW.

[Childress]

Mortars are often given direct fire orders at fairly long ranges and in the current game the other crew members would also fire their rifles at ranges that were pretty ineffective. In other words they would often be firing at ranges that your line infantry would not be (unless you told them too). I see that Steve is indicating that they might not fire at the same ranges as regular line infantry but how big the difference is remains to be seen or discussed. If they hold their fire to under 200m then you will not really suffer because your line infantry should probably not be firing their rifles at ranges much over that anyway. However if the cut off range is 50m they will not be much good fighting along side regular infantry.

Right. Steve's points made sense. But the situation risks causing confusion, esp with noobs. Maybe an explanatory entry in the manual?

And, if memory serves, mortar ammo bears never come with shells in QBs.

[YankeeDog]

And, if memory serves, mortar ammo bears never come with shells in QBs.

My SWAG is that this change applies to the mortar ammo bearers that are organic to a mortar team, and not to separate mortar ammo bearer teams, since the latter can be controlled independently and given different target orders from the mortar itself, if the player so desires.

[womble]

And, if memory serves, mortar ammo bears never come with shells in QBs.

I think that depends on which version you're using. They're meant to, and at some point that little wrinkle is bound to get tidied up, if it hasn't been already.

[akd]

I think that depends on which version you're using. They're meant to, and at some point that little wrinkle is bound to get tidied up, if it hasn't been already.

I believe it's been sorted out in 2.10, but would have to double check.

[Vanir Ausf B]

And, if memory serves, mortar ammo bears never come with shells in QBs.

Not just mortars. Ammo bearers for any towed gun (anti-tank or infantry gun) also have no shells to bear in QBs. This is in v2.01.

[womble]

Not just mortars. Ammo bearers for any towed gun (anti-tank or infantry gun) also have no shells to bear in QBs. This is in v2.01.

It's all ammo bearers, at least in FI (a v2 game). MG, mortar, ATG, they all hand over their extra ammo to the "A" team of their weapon element during the load screen of the setup phase of a QB.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Machine gun ammo bears appear to have their proper ammo loads, at least for the M1917 and M1919 machine gun teams in a standard US battalion in CMBN 2.01 QBs.

On a possibly unrelated note, the 3-man 1919 team in a US company has 844 rounds of .30 cal M2 listed in the left pane and 828 rounds listed in the right pane. Why the difference?