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Does that mean you're conceding the town VL to C3k uncontested? Or are you just going to shell the bejazus out of everything that might hold defenders and rush in unopposed to the very edge of the VL as the clock ticks out?

A last minute objective rush? Not my style... I won't steal those points from Ken if I can't make a move and be certain of being able to hold it. I am failing at being able to suppress him.. so things light end with things in the state they now are in... I am creeping some armor towards the church.. but attaining that will depend on how much I can suppress him so I can bring a few squads in to secure a toe hold.

Interestingly, I think my force was ideally chosen for the wide open nature of the map on my side, while I think his was ideal for the close terrain on his side... so far I would call this one a draw and I would be happy if it ended like that, no need IMO to make a last second rush and steal points that Ken has earned.

Bil

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His windmills create wind ... from grain- he is the most interesting AAR man in the world.

I agree with Vark along with JK ( who also mentioned it awhile ago ) in that SMG fire is alittle to effective. I have been playing v1.0 ( patched ), and think Small Arms in general is lethal enough

Understood. I didn't really think you'd be going for the gamey last minute rush; it's interesting and satisfying that you're finding Ken's infantry difficult to dislodge from his urban position. It's been asserted previously on these boards that armour has too much of an advantage for even urban terrain to even up the infantry's side (not a position I've personally found much evidence for, but it's been said): do you have a feel for how much you think the MG changes to vehicle spotting and close-quarter aiming (obviously not the light AT weapons usable from inside, since we're talking PIAT here anyway) are affecting your assessment of the feasibility of this potential assault?

On another hypothetical, would it have made a difference to your thinking at this point if you'd prosecuted your move on the town earlier? I'm thinking of the additional time to plaster the place with HE/Autocannon fire, or have you already expended most of your "soft target" ammo in the bombardment to date anyway?

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Understood. I didn't really think you'd be going for the gamey last minute rush; it's interesting and satisfying that you're finding Ken's infantry difficult to dislodge from his urban position. It's been asserted previously on these boards that armour has too much of an advantage for even urban terrain to even up the infantry's side (not a position I've personally found much evidence for, but it's been said): do you have a feel for how much you think the MG changes to vehicle spotting and close-quarter aiming (obviously not the light AT weapons usable from inside, since we're talking PIAT here anyway) are affecting your assessment of the feasibility of this potential assault?

I have been able to spot very little.. this is why I have been trying to get some dismounts in position to get me some spots. I am getting a few.. but far too few really to make a difference. Armor alone will not last long against a determined enemy like Ken in an urban environment.

On another hypothetical, would it have made a difference to your thinking at this point if you'd prosecuted your move on the town earlier? I'm thinking of the additional time to plaster the place with HE/Autocannon fire, or have you already expended most of your "soft target" ammo in the bombardment to date anyway?

I don't think so.. I started my move after Ken moved his tanks out.. before that I was being careful to avoid the town and was concentrating elsewhere because I didn't want to get shredded by keyholed AA tanks and the support tank.

Perhaps I should have just left the town alone.. feinted towards it and continued my original approach. I do not have the manpower or the correct force to engage in house to house combat so I should have stayed the course.

Lesson learned.

Bil

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I don't think so.. I started my move after Ken moved his tanks out.. before that I was being careful to avoid the town and was concentrating elsewhere because I didn't want to get shredded by keyholed AA tanks and the support tank.

Well, that's understandable.

Perhaps I should have just left the town alone..

Did you really have much choice? I've kinda lost track of the way the VLs ended up, with all the confusion at the start, but I got the impression that the Town was the only one you felt honour allowed you to even attempt to contest. Would slogging round the rest of the map have netted you any advantage? Unless I've gotten the victory point setup muddled, you were almost obliged to at least try and take a nibble at the town, and it doesn't seem to me that so far you've suffered unduly for having the best swing you could muster at it.

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interesting assessment and given the changes in MG a good one. I had an AI unit close assault a tank and survive to tell the tale so any decisions regarding urban combat have to be made with that in mind. Urban fighting has gotten a lot more dangerous for armor and you are facing guys with the morale and weaponry to carry that out.

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Indeed. If there's enough time to do that, that's the true and tried way to make any headway in a built-up area against a determined enemy.

Especially when that enemy's close quarter fire power is far more devastating than yours. I take it that this discrepancy forms an essential theme in this infantry-centric module.

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In case you're wondering if we, the (finally!) happy owners of market garden, are still watching..

YES!

And I, at least, have a greatly increased respect for Sten armed paras at short range.

And also for shrecks and fausts fired from inside buildings, although I don't think Ken is too worried about those threats in particular.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vark

Indeed. If there's enough time to do that, that's the true and tried way to make any headway in a built-up area against a determined enemy.

In the battle for Aachen, the Americans wheeled up the M12 155 mm SPA and took apart any building that was occupied and resisting. The German commandant later complained that it "wasn't fair".

Michael

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If one has never been next to a large caliber howitzer firing it really is awesome to feel the power of it! The Earth literally shakes, and the body feels the shock of it going off. Just devastating firepower that puts one in total awe! I can only imagine the terror being on the receiving end.

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I think the same must be true of post war tanks as well. Which is not surprising considering the propellent charge they were packing by that time. I clearly recall movies made from near the muzzle of firing tanks. When the gun went off, the camera jerked as if it had been hit with a baseball bat. And this was 60 years ago.

Michael

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Wonder if the German player will complain when a company of SU-152's, in the Bagration game, open up in direct fire? If I remember correctly, in Aachen they, the Germans, hid in the cellars and had to be rooted out by grenades and flamethrowers. Still finding urban combat is a pain due to micro-managing, it would be nice to have actions keyed to a different units waypoint. So the second squad only enters house B, when first squad reaches x, instead of trying to guestimate the time taken.

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I thinks SMG fire is far too effective, and will once again, in Bagration, lead to the Papasha death squads. IIRC, an SMG's main role is to give far more effective suppressive fire whilst moving, or at close range, snap targets.

Interesting, I was thinking it may have something to do with how the unit is developed. would their effectiveness not be with how they are; Fit, Crack-Elite etc.

I beleive the brits are doing well, Vetran with some crack troops possibly, but I know range effects the Sten, however Thompsons and MP-40 fair pretty decent. I have shot the MP-40 numerous times its great.

I see your point for future Bagration-Eastern front, but the Quality of 80% of the russian troops would be either regular or conscript at best... maybe a few vetrans sprinkled around. But in anyones hands the PPsh-41 is effective for Urban combat.

In the end in all the battles I have played my most effective weapons have been the squad machine gun, and their Rifles, in close in within 100m the SMG does nicely depending if the unit is not suppressed etc. Playing both sides.. The US really has alot of Fire Superiority with their squads.. lots of semi-auto's and thompsons with .30cal.'s

Looking forward in purchasing Market Garden this week, and the Italian theatre.

In the end its Fire superiortiy is what you want.. suppress and manuever, kill.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So for the past two turns Ken's support tank has sat in one spot... he is also pushing some infantry through the Dunes, the halftrack I have had pinned in that area took a lot of very short range automatic weapons fire. This has been the only indication that he has infantry pushing across the fields.

Elsewhere, Ken also has a major push moving towards the windmill...

10637449506_96070838ee_b.jpg

Ken's holding the support tank in position for two minutes has allowed me to close the range with my Jpz which will move closer to shutting off that avenue of approach in the next few turns.

I am also moving another AA vehicle into this area to provide a bit more firepower.

10637675353_af1d4591ab_b.jpg

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