AXIS - CMBN-Market Garden - BETA AAR

[BletchleyGeek]

PIAT warhead is HEAT. Range does not affect penetration.

Not if the projectile starts rotating or wobbling, as such a slow velocity projectile would after travelling some distance in a arcing trajectory. That disperses the blast, doesn't it?

[Vanir Ausf B]

According to it's wiki page the PIAT had an effective direct fire range of only 110 meters but could be used as indirect fire out to 320 meters, so my guess is that the round was expected to remain more-or-less stable out to 320 and the shorter anti-tank range was due to inaccuracy rather than ballistic limitations.

[Michael Emrys]

It should also penetrate more effectively in indirect mode if it in fact scores a hit, since presumably it would be striking the thinner top armor. This is also the strength of most AT grenades.

Michael

[Vark]

One can only presume they are trying to model the blast venting out of the open topped vehicle. Still, with a fighting compartment crammed full of ammo and crew, perhaps a bit under-modelled.

Vehicle crews still seem to be far too resilient to crew injuries, I suspect if a thinly armoured AA vehicle had lost its commander and radio, to a previously undetected weapon it would retire and play little further part in the combat. Heavier armoured vehicles have pulled out in similar situations.

[John Kettler]

Vark and ArgusEye,

Containing the blast and heat of a shaped charge penetration in a buttoned down, closed topped AFV was generally disastrous for the crew, but I marvel that the ~20,000 fps metal jet didn't hit something other than the TC and radio for the OT turret hit (would love to see that shotline path) and didn't at least incapacitate the hull crew in the other penetrating strike. Here's why for the latter:

http://english.battlefield.ru/js-2.html

Battlefield.Ru on IS-1, IS-2 Heavy Tanks

(Fair Use)

"Lieutenant-Colonel V.Mindlin (a participant of battles for Berlin) wrote in his memoirs "The Last Battle - the Hard Battle!" about this:

"Here is a tank with battened down hatches... but the crew is silent. They respond to neither radio nor knock. There is a small hole with a diameter no more than a cent. That was a "faust", that was its work. A shield was torn off, and a next round penetrated the armor...

Those who saw a tank battle knew how terrible death could be for tankers. If a round hit the ammunition or fuel tanks, a tank would be destroyed at once - just blast off and the crew perishing without any torture.

Often a round just penetrates the tank's armor but doesn't hit the ammunition or fuel tanks. All crewmembers are wounded, their tank is burning, but the crew is unable to extinguish the flame. They need to escape the tank and run off to a safe distance. However, the tankers are wounded and they simply can't do that, they can't open the locked hatches. And you can hear the cries of those being burned alive. You can't help them because the hatches are locked inside..."

It was very dangerous to fight with open hatches (and prohibited, by the way) because enemy infantry could throw a grenade into a tank. Thus, all crews received an order to close hatches but not to lock them. As a result the losses crew were reduced."

(Fair Use)

Speaking of HEAT phenomenology, I came across this useful primer, replete with charts, graphs, diagrams and splendid high speed photographs of the entire detonation cycle for several HEAT and SFF/EFP (self-forging fragment/explosively formed penetrator) munitions.

PDF]

Introduction to Shaped Charges - Defense Technical Information ...

www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA469696‎

by W Walters - ‎2007

This British period PIAT bomb cutaway drawing should let our ordnance types draw some useful conclusions regarding what delights might enter the Wirbelwind upon bomb detonation.

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/attachments/piat.jpg

And along comes our own Jeff Duquette (jwduquette1) with all the specifics re the explosives used, their merits or lack thereof. No product for sale!

http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22116

Regards,

John Kettler

[pnzrldr]

All note: PIAT, bazooka, Pzfaust or Schreck, US 105mm HEAT from a Priest, modern-day AT-4, TOW, Hellfire, Mk-19 40mm HEDP, etc... all have HEAT warheads, and the penetration is totally independent from the velocity of the round. You could walk up to a tank, set a Pzfaust (or any of the above) warhead against the front slope, back off and detonate it with a blasting cap and time fuze and it will have the exact same penetration as if it struck the vehicle on the fly. See John's references above for details on why/how.

[John Kettler]

pnzrleader,

Did you say walk up to a tank, back off and detonate the HEAT warhead? Clearly, you have no idea how valuable time fuzes are. They are not to be squandered! Here's a proven HEAT warhead delivery system which doesn't require a time fuze. Mind, it's a bit messy! Intel diagram, not a product, Moon.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/jp_tankhunters/fig1_japanese_lunge_mine_antitank.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[Chops]

Bil a few questions if you have time.

I have seen the terms Heide and Polder used to describe various terrain types in the Holland area. Are these included in the MG module, and if so will you please provide a description of each?

Also, in the CM:MG Manual, it says that truck mounted AA units cannot fire to the front over the cab. When issuing targeting orders to one of these units, will the trucks re-position automatically so that the AA guns can fire from the back of the unit?

Additionally are there any CM:MG scenarios included in the module that correlate to any of the scenarios in Command Ops: HTTR?

[GhostRider3/3]

I am totaly digging the AAR. Well done by both sides. I have just pre-ordered Market Garden and said what the hell, I might as well fill my steel case and order the entire Italian Theatre as well.

Thanks for uploading this, I cant wait.

[Michael Emrys]

Also, in the CM:MG Manual, it says that truck mounted AA units cannot fire to the front over the cab. When issuing targeting orders to one of these units, will the trucks re-position automatically so that the AA guns can fire from the back of the unit?

I am pretty certain that they do not in GL, where such vehicles were introduced. It is the player's responsibility to see to it that they have proper facing to bring fire on sighted or anticipated enemy units. This is also true for a variety of other weapon systems, such as ATGs for instance.

Michael

[pnzrldr]

John - that is certainly one way of saving on expensive time fuze! I love it! How practical! Don't let our Taliban friends see that, they would adopt it in a heartbeat (and I am not really kidding).

[Bil Hardenberger]

Ken's support tank has advanced down the road... my 3rd Platoon Leader's 251/10 fired first at its flank... it missed.. the support tank did not.

Ken's damned support tank is causing havoc on my right... it has now killed a 251/1, 3rd platoon's leader and 251/10 and another 251/10 that belonged to 1st platoon.... this amounts to a major part of my firepower on this flank.

I have the Moebelwagen in a nice keyhole position in case ken brings that beast further down the road.. there is an infantry team in position with a PF and I am maneuvering the panther in as aggressive manner... hoping to get Ken to rethink this madness

I am reversing my Jpz deeper into the rear of the map... I wasn't feeling too good about its previous location and it was feeling kind of like a sacrificial lamb.

Truthfully I think Ken is fighting an inspired battle, and my hat is off to him.

[Michael Emrys]

Truthfully I think Ken is fighting an inspired battle, and my hat is off to him.

Sometimes in war madness has its virtues.

Michael

[Hister]

Finally Bill has found a worthy opponent! I was sure it will be all over in 15 turns in bill's favour.

[Vark]

Or, he's exploiting the fact that the game allows him to waste men and not really suffer. Bil is fighting a realistic, typically cautious battle, in keeping with his forces, Ken is trying to simulate a mini-Ragnarok, with PIAT shots no veteran would even contemplate, let alone execute.

I always thought it was easier to defend in CM, because soldiers would only break if routed by gunfire, not a tank racing towards them, or if they discovered they had been outflanked. The CM1 games got slightly ludicrous as you sent soldiers racing ahead to try to gun down the fleeing enemy, if you were lucky, they might surrender to an AFV. A belligerent defender can extract a blood price that is usually ahistorical, and often unhinge a realistic assault.

[John Kettler]

Bil,

Was starting to wonder whether you and c3k were fighting in the same battle, given the huge narrative disconnects, but it all makes sense after discovering his reports are 10+ turns behind yours. Considering the damage c3k's support tank's inflicted, I'd guess you're glad you clobbered his standard tanks early in the fight. Nice bluff with the franged Panther!

pnzrldr,

Someone wearing a suicide vest is doing the same thing, albeit with a claymore mine/directional mine rather than a big shaped charge on the end of a piece of bamboo. I suspect the Taliban and similar would rather kill a lot of enemies through successful standoff attacks (command-detonated IEDs, RPG ambush, etc.) than maybe one AFV through direct personal attack. The lunge mine is best suited to use in the jungle in multiple attacks against a tank either unsupported by infantry, temporarily deprived of it by suppressive fire and/or degraded by obscuration which hinders the (Buttoned) tank's ability to see and fight. I suppose, though, that the lunge mine might be a headache in MOUT, too. I know of no such WW II use. Japanese Tank And Antitank Warfare describes the what (weaponry), starting on page 100, and the how (tactics) on page 178.

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/wwIIspec/number34.pdf

Vark,

Paras, no matter whose they are, aren't noted for their lack of combat zeal and take lumps accordingly. I recall reading one military historian's observation that when the FJ weren't in the field, the men liked to free climb mountains, resulting in casualties on par with jumping from low level. People who join such branches are inherent risk takers, who revel in overcoming challenges. Thus, considering how meager c3k's armor is after Bil laid most of it low, c3k's mounting quite a defense using mostly infantry against Bil's armor heavy and very high firepower force. Had c3k gotten better "die rolls" in his numerous PIAT hits on Bil's AFVs, things would be much worse on Bil's end. As it is, Bil's taken some serious losses in terms of executing his battle plan.

Were the CMx1 morale meter in CMx2, I think that would act as a brake on behavior by c3k with which you disagree. As it is, I think he's making effective use of the toughness of his Paras to somewhat offset Bil's enormous firepower. He's sheltered his shooters to the extent possible, but hasn't hesitated to really push his men to gain the advantage, or at least deny it to Bil! Are c3k's men sucking wind from racing about playing Stalk the German AFV or Flak Track? One would imagine, but c3k, for all his "Attack and die!" ballyhoo, is a dangerous, calculating, risk taking opponent. He doesn't play with Bil's chesslike approach, but instead, with verve and a "Go for broke!" command style fully in keeping with his Paras and the dash of the RAC. He may talk as though his men are meant to die, but he really intends them to kill Bil. Sorry, couldn't resist!

Regards,

John Kettler

[gubu]

Or, he's exploiting the fact that the game allows him to waste men and not really suffer. Bil is fighting a realistic, typically cautious battle, in keeping with his forces, Ken is trying to simulate a mini-Ragnarok, with PIAT shots no veteran would even contemplate, let alone execute.

Gotta disagree I'm afraid. The heroics and unlikely manoeuvres performed during market garden, not to mention the other theatres of the war, make anything here look rather tame and coy. Chapeau Ken. Terrific defence.

[MikeyD]

c3k's gameplay reminds me of a line attributed incongruously to Douglas MacArthur - "Hit 'em where they ain't". Instead of attempting to trade punches to the jaw he's landed a series of kidney shots. Bill's main thrust doesn't seem to be noticeably weaker but his élan has been decreased. I am enjoying the contest.

[BletchleyGeek]

Bil, let me remind you of this line you wrote a few turns back:

Note, I do not need to capture that objective to win this game.. I only need to keep Ken from scoring those points... and that is my intent in this game.

Ken now occupies terrain where his troops capabilities can shine. I think he's been mis-managing badly his forces, even if the Spaniard in me appreciates his taste for charging at windmills (hosting machine gun nests). He's naturally and logically, doing better. John is right that Ken's troops are the very best, but even the best infantry in the world can't overpower a mechanized force by charging it across a couple hundred meters of open ground.

In the more recent screenshots I've come to appreciate that it's indeed a quite strong defensive position. But let's not forget that you've basically routed him away from the other three quarters of the map. It's not that Ken wanted to be there, you pushed him there - so I think it's a natural thing that you might suffering losses as you press your attack. Losses that can significantly impair your force, which I find to be reasonably well-balanced for a being a "show pony" - the point of this game is to showcase MG equipment after all.

I think you're already winning. You don't need to slaughter those paras yourself. I think Ken it's in a better position - and willing - to do that for you. Just stand back, sit down your troops on good ground overlooking the ways out of that forested area and start pummelling from a distance the town (I might be wrong but you have some nice high ground right behind your main force). Then wait for Ken's offensive spirit to kick in as he mistakes your "hasty retreat" as his chance "to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat" and launches some sort of Pickett's Charge-like antic.

Good luck and good game!

[Michael Emrys]

c3k's gameplay reminds me of a line attributed incongruously to Douglas MacArthur - "Hit 'em where they ain't".

I've seen that quote attributed to Patton as well. My hunch is that it may go all the way back to the ACW and the idea goes back at least to Sun Tzu.

Michael

[dumrox]

That's a baseball quote by Wee Willie Keeler.

[Michael Emrys]

Ah yes. Don't remember Wee Willie, but do recall the association with baseball. Nowadays it's called hitting them in the hole.

Michael

[Bil Hardenberger]

At the end of last turn my MG at teh windmill saw this PIAT team, with two launchers running towards my Panther and Moebelwagen. This turn he engages them and takes down one of the two.. the other immediately disappeared.. so hopefully he is suppressed.. can't count on that though.

On my right, Ken has pulled his support tank back.. the blue arrow shows how it could maneuver.. I'll prepare for either movement. I have a Jpz coming over to this flank to provide some AT firepower.. it was wasted in the assault on the town anyway.

My move towards the town has taken way too long to develop and Ken could see it coming from a long way off... so he has a lot of forces in that town.. any dismounts and halftracks I have immediately get beat to ground and attrited.. so I doubt I will be able to push much further here.. I will not push armor unsupported into this terrain. I only hope that my firepower is having an effect. I might try a limited push toward the church, I have spotted a PIAT in that area... but it isn't PIATs I fear.. its his heavily armed paras... close in they could be murder on any armor I send in...

[Seedorf81]

In case you're wondering if we, the (finally!) happy owners of market garden, are still watching..

YES!

[womble]

...I doubt I will be able to push much further here.. I will not push armor unsupported into this terrain. I only hope that my firepower is having an effect. I might try a limited push toward the church...

Does that mean you're conceding the town VL to C3k uncontested? Or are you just going to shell the bejazus out of everything that might hold defenders and rush in unopposed to the very edge of the VL as the clock ticks out?