New Eastern Front Thread? (no nazis plz)

[Vanir Ausf B]

Another option would be to go late-war and add maybe the Hetzer, Jagdtiger, and some vehicle variants.

I believe they have said that the modules/packs for the Bagration game will extend the timeline to the end of the war. Kursk will be a separate game.

[Duckman]

I believe they have said that the modules/packs for the Bagration game will extend the timeline to the end of the war. Kursk will be a separate game.

That makes excellent sense. I guess the only remaining question then is how they will treat the Axis minors.

[Lt Belenko]

Steiner14 gone? Did he leave or was he banned?

Deserved it long ago.

That makes excellent sense. I guess the only remaining question then is how they will treat the Axis minors.

Probably will be included in one of the modules for each game.

[Sublime]

Deserved it long ago.

Probably will be included in one of the modules for each game.

+1. He'd made incredibly offensive asinine posts as far back as 2003. Thats when he first popped up on my radar. Good riddance.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the minors. Italians are a relatively niche force to cover, and they were included. Plus BFC is fanatical about detail, and a lot of the East just cannot be covered without the minors. At the very least I'm almost certain the Italians will be in at some point, if only because a lot of their uniforms and stuff were already done for FI. Unless the Italian formations and equipment in the East were so utterly different that nothing from FI can be used at all, which I doubt. It also would make sense, as I seem to recall BFC saying a large part of choosing Bagration 44 is because a lot of the equipment previously made in Normandy, etc would be able to be recycled in the East, making for faster and easier development.

I for one prefer late war East. I like all of it, and have a special love for 41 and Stalingrad later. Actually now that I think about it I really like it all, but end of war for me makes better gaming at the tactical level. Strategically the Germans are all done, but theres still fight in em tactically and the equipment on both sides is pretty well matched.

It'd REALLY be fantastic if BFC modelled it so paras in the West (maybe only ones proven to have used fausts) and Soviet troops late war could either be equipped with occasional fausts, have a faust equip option in QBs, or perhaps could buddy aid fausts from dead Germans.

[SelfLoadingRifle]

Will they wear the party uniform as differentiated from the normal Heer and SS uniforms?

Michael

I have it on good authority that they will be closely modelled on the Blue Meanies from the film "Yellow Submarine."

SLR:D

[John Kettler]

I fervently hope that this time BFC will get the Russian weapon modeling and terminal effectiveness issues sorted out, so we don't have to resort to kluges to get the right tactical effect. It occurs to me, though, they may be a nonissue by this stage of the war, but frankly, I don't recall the cutoff point.

And would it be too much to ask for proper pivoting and pivoting rate to finally be implemented for pertinent German AFVs so they can do in game what the real ones could? We've suffered through CMBO, CMBB, CMAK, CMBN and CMFI without this valuable feature.

I'd also like to see guns handled better. It takes way too long to pick up the trails (except for maybe the monsters) and pivot, not to mention being able to trundle guns forward and backward directly, without the present ridiculous and generally fatal U-turn. If tank crews can leave the tank and return, gun crews should be able to do the same. There were, after all, crew shelters for guns in defensive positions (see that sequence in Tanko Brigada where the camouflaged 88s are uncrewed until after the barrage lifts). Simply wouldn't work as currently implemented, for the guns would be utterly useless, save as targets! Also, something like this is needed to represent the Russian practice of the emplaced loaded antitank gun with one man on the gun and the rest of the crew and ammo nearby, also dug in. Not only do we need gun pits, but crew holes at the guns, time affording. There's direct photographic evidence the Germans did this for the PaK 40. I forget the page, but it's in the WW II photo collection link someone gave. The pics are closeups.

Motorcycles! A major part of Russian recon (Lend-Lease Harley-Davidsons). Motorcycles led the way, followed by White Scout cars or BA-64s. There's a pic showing a sidecar equipped motorcycle with a swing down 82mm mortar, too. What fun! Somewhat akin to our Cav jeeps with a 60mm mortar, but ours had to be dismounted to use.

Germans should have Zundapps, BMWs, etc. for messenger work and other goodies. No idea whether or not they were in use for recon by this stage of the war.

Kettenkrad, bitte!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wodin]

Motorbikes with sidecars thats what I want.

[John Kettler]

Wodin,

The Russians did use them, and I'm sure in a sidecar configuration. This part of the site's about Lend-Lease motorcycles to Russia, but the overall site's about military Harleys in WW II. Per the main site, U.S. Cav units used them for (gasp) recon. There's a good pic there of a recon troop up front in Normandy and dismounted, with the men deploying into houses.

http://www.theliberator.be/liberator8.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wodin]

Yep the Russians did have the motorbike and sidecar set up..esp used for recon purposes I believe.

Though secretly I've wanted to reenact Meyers attack on the village with them all racing at full pelt towards it MG firing away..something he said he never did again..nor would he got away with it later in the war.

[A Canadian Cat]

I fervently hope that this time BFC will get the Russian weapon modeling and terminal effectiveness issues sorted out, so we don't have to resort to kluges to get the right tactical effect.

What are you referring to here John? I was not aware that there were any issues with weapons modeling specific to the Russian forces in CMBB.

And would it be too much to ask for proper pivoting and pivoting rate to finally be implemented for pertinent German AFVs so they can do in game what the real ones could? We've suffered through CMBO, CMBB, CMAK, CMBN and CMFI without this valuable feature.

I was not aware that the turret traversal times were not already modeled. It feels like it is to me. I watch my Sherman and Churchill tank turrets turning a different rates and same for PzIVs and Panthers.

I'd also like to see guns handled better. It takes way too long to pick up the trails (except for maybe the monsters) and pivot, not to mention being able to trundle guns forward and backward directly, without the present ridiculous and generally fatal U-turn. If tank crews can leave the tank and return, gun crews should be able to do the same.

That would be awesome - I agree. I think changing the gun's facing works reasonably well now. If it could be extended so that moving a short distance would not cost the full packup and setup time that would be very helpful. Clearly moving a gun should not be free and easy but moving slightly should not really involve packing everything up.

[Michael Emrys]

Per the main site, U.S. Cav units used them for (gasp) recon.

Not after 1942, I don't think. After that, they were just used for messenger service and similar odd jobs. That doesn't mean that the cav regiments got rid of all theirs though. Apparently the principle objections to using them for recon were that they were difficult to operate in rough terrain and were too noisy. Seems to me that the noise problem could have been overcome had they really needed to, but that's what I read. Wouldn't surprise me if a lack of usable payload was a contributing factor. Kind of hard to put a WW II-era radio on a motorcycle.

Michael

[hoolaman]

What are you referring to here John? I was not aware that there were any issues with weapons modeling specific to the Russian forces in CMBB.

Russian 76mm underpowered vs Stugs?

I was not aware that the turret traversal times were not already modeled. It feels like it is to me. I watch my Sherman and Churchill tank turrets turning a different rates and same for PzIVs and Panthers.

Tanks don't intelligently slew the hull while moving the turret.

That would be awesome - I agree. I think changing the gun's facing works reasonably well now. If it could be extended so that moving a short distance would not cost the full packup and setup time that would be very helpful. Clearly moving a gun should not be free and easy but moving slightly should not really involve packing everything up.

A gun crew could move a deployed gun short distances very quickly, almost a running pace. Especially the smaller calibres. Packing up all the ammo and getting it ready to mount on a vehicle etc is another thing of course. But the game doesn't seem to think so.

[ridethe415]

Magnetic tank mines please.

Schwimmwagens.

Partisans.

Katyushas.

Gebirgsjagers.

Short wish list.

[John Kettler]

ian.leslie,

JasonC held forth on CMBB time and again regarding deficient modeling of Russian AP projectiles, resulting in poor terminal effects modeling. Additionally he made strong recommendations that certain German AFVs be employed rather than the overmodeled ones which were effectively all but invulnerable to undermodeled Russian projectiles.

Pivoting rate refers not to turret traverse rate but to the ability to pivot a German AFV on its tracks, something which has been poorly represented throughout all the games to date. This improper depiction of pivot rate directly affects the survivability of such AFVs, which presently get cut to pieces for the lack of it. Why? They can't traverse their hulls rapidly react to threats by facing them. This is particularly true of StuGs and other limited traverse AFVs. A separate but related issue is variable traverse rate on German tanks, depending on the engine's state. I believe there is simply one rate in the game presently.

Michael Emrys,

The pic's clearly labeled as Normandy 1944, so they must still have been in use as the recon screen for the armored cars. The Wiki says this of the WLA's fitments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_WLA

accessories: a heavy-duty luggage rack (for radios), ammo box, leather Thompson submachine gun scabbard, skid plate, leg protectors, and windshield could be fitted. Most came with at least these accessories less the windshield or leg protectors.

I'm not saying they were common, merely that they were being used, for recon work, in Normandy in 1944. The pic shows their dismounted and moving into position. The WLA Harley-Davidsons are clearly in evidence in the pic.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

There's a good pic there of a recon troop up front in Normandy and dismounted, with the men deploying into houses.

http://www.theliberator.be/liberator8.htm

John,

Do you have a link to the picture you describe? I searched the site and couldn't find anything to match your description.

Meanwhile, to quote from World War II US Cavalry Groups European Theater, on page 6 one finds this paragraph:

Study of the 1939-41 campaigns in Europe indicated that reconnaissance units would have to be better armed and capable of improved cross-country mobility. The motorcycles were replaced with the new 1/4-ton truck or "jeep" in 1942...

On page 4 is a photo of a soldier on a Harley and the caption reads in part:

Harley-Davidson motorcycles were used until replaced by jeeps; they could not negotiate extremely rough ground, mud, sand, or snow, were difficult to handle on ice and were noisier than jeeps.

Were they still used in generous numbers? You betcha. The MPs used lots of them as is shown in the pics on the site you link to, and they were still used as messengers and for odd jobs. I'm sure that every mechanized unit of battalion size or greater had a bunch of them. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if a TD unit, for instance, had one going ahead in company with ACs to scout good locations for them to set up. Same thing for the artillery. But as the lead element of say a corps moving through unsecured terrain, I am very doubtful based on what I have read so far.

Michael

[Duckman]

I doubt the German early-war motorcycle battalion actually rode into combat. From what I could find it seems the motorcycles were rather a substitute for trucks.

Of course recon elements especially could and would advance mounted to contact, but for the majority of motorcycle troops it seems it was just a means of road transportation.

[A Canadian Cat]

JasonC held forth on CMBB time and again regarding deficient modeling of Russian AP projectiles, resulting in poor terminal effects modeling. Additionally he made strong recommendations that certain German AFVs be employed rather than the overmodeled ones which were effectively all but invulnerable to undermodeled Russian projectiles.

OK, got it thanks for the background. I have played CMBB but only for a short while back in between when CMBN was announced and when it released. I have confidence, given the quality of the modeling in CMBN and FI, that things will be good in the east as well.

Pivoting rate refers not to turret traverse rate but to the ability to pivot a German AFV on its tracks, something which has been poorly represented throughout all the games to date. This improper depiction of pivot rate directly affects the survivability of such AFVs, which presently get cut to pieces for the lack of it. Why? They can't traverse their hulls rapidly react to threats by facing them. This is particularly true of StuGs and other limited traverse AFVs. A separate but related issue is variable traverse rate on German tanks, depending on the engine's state. I believe there is simply one rate in the game presently.

Ah, understand. Fully tracked vehicles turning in place does seem pretty generic in game right now. Kind of like reverse.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Vark]

Might be also nice to have the seriously over-stressed transmissions, of some notoriously under-powered German tanks, fail when they are pivoting and be immobilised.

[Baneman]

Might be also nice to have the seriously over-stressed transmissions, of some notoriously under-powered German tanks, fail when they are pivoting and be immobilised.

Man, you would NEVER hear the end of the screams ! The forum could probably not accomodate the threads !

[Apocal]

The game would need better feedback and more detailed automotive modelling to make that worthwhile.

[poesel]

Wheeled vehicles also pivot in place and I doubt BFC likes this. But it makes pathing for the AI much easier.

Still I hope that Charles will take a deep look into vehicle movement some time. I think it would be well worth the while.

[dieseltaylor]

Might be also nice to have the seriously over-stressed transmissions, of some notoriously under-powered German tanks, fail when they are pivoting and be immobilised.

I am surprised that you don't think it applies to Allied tanks also ....

However in terms of loss on the battlefield as opposed to travelling to and from a battlefield I think there is a not insignificant difference. Particularly for the German kitties. Fortunately as most Tiger losses are recorded I am sure you can see for yourself that most were lost by being overrun in depot, out of petrol and destroyed by crews, or combat, rather than transmission failure on the battlefield.

In game terms really quite rare and not likely to amuse players when it did happen. Given the present major bodges on movement that discriminate mainly against German tanks it would seem a bit rich to devote any effort to a rare event.

[Spinoza]

There were, after all, crew shelters for guns in defensive positions (see that sequence in Tanko Brigada where the camouflaged 88s are uncrewed until after the barrage lifts). Simply wouldn't work as currently implemented, for the guns would be utterly useless, save as targets! Also, something like this is needed to represent the Russian practice of the emplaced loaded antitank gun with one man on the gun and the rest of the crew and ammo nearby, also dug in. Not only do we need gun pits, but crew holes at the guns, time affording.

Like this for guns and MG?

or this for mortars

Also screens in this thread :http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3749522/Attack_with_mortars_in_halftra#Post3749522

Every self -respecting pixels killer should have copy of both CM and Operation Star .