Michael Emrys Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 This unit trait has puzzled me all along. What is its actual function within the game? Aside from the fact that it exists at all, the manual is pretty uninformative. I might suppose that it effects the overall efficiency of the unit, but isn't that covered by the experience level? And one might suppose that a unit with high leadership would rally from a poor morale state faster, but isn't that taken care of by the specific morale level that is also a trait of the unit? So just what does leadership rating mean in practice? I can't recall any discussion of this factor here although plenty has been devoted to experience and morale. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulverisor64 Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I'm very glad that you brought this up. It is hard to substantiate leadership effects. I can certainly see that units within proper C2 react better, but it's hard to put a finger on what physical effects are transmitted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Because leadership effects were designed to be nebulous? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik mond Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 To me this is one of the most easily recognized attributes I have seen in some of the scenarios I observed by changing leadership and watching the results. example: Two Squads charging forward, one behind the other. HQ too far behind. 1 squad is totally cut down to a man. The second squad, -1 leadership, a little behind in the dead ground now freezes and does not move. They are in panic and will not recover. Yet did not lose a man. Bump leadership up to +1, run the scenario again. The second squad continues forward, after the first squad is annihilation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Units stacked with a leader get to subtract the leader's modifier from all attack and morale check die rolls. No....wait... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 It definitely affects moral. That much at least has been confirmed via testing. And yes, that does seem to overlap function with Motivation. It has also been said that it affects how spotting information is shared, but it's unknown in what way. Does lower leadership cause a delay in the information moving from one unit to the next? Is there a chance of information getting lost? It would probably be possible to test this, but the sharing of spotting information seems to have too small an effect on gameplay for anyone to bother. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Steppenwulf Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 To me this is one of the most easily recognized attributes I have seen in some of the scenarios I observed by changing leadership and watching the results. example: Two Squads charging forward, one behind the other. HQ too far behind. 1 squad is totally cut down to a man. The second squad, -1 leadership, a little behind in the dead ground now freezes and does not move. They are in panic and will not recover. Yet did not lose a man. Bump leadership up to +1, run the scenario again. The second squad continues forward, after the first squad is annihilation. This is similar to my personal experience - however objectively untested. I feel sure that an assault command with -2 leadership is more likely to whither under enemy resistance than one where the leadership carries a bonus. I'd go so far as to say that I've learned a lesson not to assault with -2 led squads and instead to manoeuvre superior led teams to do the close up dirty work. On the other hand, I would question whether negative leadership gives a penalty when simply receiving fire, but a penalty may be incurred when being assaulted - I've yet to observe enough of the latter situations to hold a view. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 AIUI, Leadership affects rally rate (when we're thinking about morale). Since troops are always rallying, and it takes time to mow an element down, a good leader can recover the degradation in morale from the first casualty before the next casualty is sustained, so the morale state of the unit doesn't effectively drop. Its function certainly overlaps in effect with other "soft" characteristics of a unit, but it gets there by different mechanisms. At least that's what I've gleaned from previous discussions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobo Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Units stacked with a leader get to subtract the leader's modifier from all attack and morale check die rolls. No....wait... Be careful of rolling my sniper.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik mond Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 This is similar to my personal experience - however objectively untested. I feel sure that an assault command with -2 leadership is more likely to whither under enemy resistance than one where the leadership carries a bonus. I'd go so far as to say that I've learned a lesson not to assault with -2 led squads and instead to manoeuvre superior led teams to do the close up dirty work. On the other hand, I would question whether negative leadership gives a penalty when simply receiving fire, but a penalty may be incurred when being assaulted - I've yet to observe enough of the latter situations to hold a view. I observed my example in the previous post by setting up a scenario and having the AI run the same pattern over as I observed in Scenario Author test mode. I had a squad that was not moving and wasn't sure at the time why. When I bumped up leadership they continued on their AI path. So it was reproducable. What IS a mystery is that the 2nd squad in panic never had a shot fired at it. They only witnessed a sibling squad destroyed nearby. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 What IS a mystery is that the 2nd squad in panic never had a shot fired at it. They only witnessed a sibling squad destroyed nearby. I wouldn't call that a mystery. Morale drop is contagious. How contagious is determined by proximity, both physical and within the chain of command. For example, if you've got a platoon of tanks scattered across the map, and Tank 4 is out of sight of HQ and 1-3 who've all been brewed up in quick succession, Tank 4 will probably have a lower morale state than he started with. If 1-3-C squad is advancing next to 2-1-A squad, and 2-1-A get chopped to dogmeat by an ambush in plain sight, nearby, they'll get a bit nervous. Your example seems to suggest the squads are in close proximity, both in the TO and in the game space, so the secons will be as discouraged by casualties to the first to the largest extent the game demands. Even units distant in the same command tree and physically will eventually get wind of the disasters that have befallen A Coy and start losing morale state. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgie Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Hello, Paging Battlefront, please answer the question of this thread. It would be most appreciated by and beneficial to your devoted fans. Signed, nobody 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Well, the manual does say, after all that: If you select your platoon leader, you will notice a “+1” next to his name in the unit information panel. This means that he exerts a positive leadership bonus on all units under his command. The details of what this bonus entails are intentionally somewhat murky, but the basic gist is that units under his command will simply perform their jobs better than units under the command of a leader without a bonus. From that we can conclude that a squad will have its leadership rating affected by the presence of its HQ unit. Unless I'm understanding this wrong, this would mean for example that: -1st Squad has a leader with a +0 leadership rating. It is in C2 with its platoon leader, which has a +1 rating. Therefore, so long as the two remain in C2, 1st Squad will perform with a +1 leadership rating. This would mimic reality: a leader can have a positive, inspiring effect on his subordinates, no real change in effectiveness (either good or bad), or drag a unit's effectiveness down. See also: Lieutenant Dike, Lieutenant Winters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Units stacked with a leader get to subtract the leader's modifier from all attack and morale check die rolls. No....wait... LoL Come on....snake eyes! And the unit goes berserk. Speaking of which, do units in CM2 ever go berserk? I know they did in CM1. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Well, the manual does say, after all that: From that we can conclude that a squad will have its leadership rating affected by the presence of its HQ unit. Unless I'm understanding this wrong, this would mean for example that: -1st Squad has a leader with a +0 leadership rating. It is in C2 with its platoon leader, which has a +1 rating. Therefore, so long as the two remain in C2, 1st Squad will perform with a +1 leadership rating. This would mimic reality: a leader can have a positive, inspiring effect on his subordinates, no real change in effectiveness (either good or bad), or drag a unit's effectiveness down. See also: Lieutenant Dike, Lieutenant Winters. Yeah, I assumed that for HQ units. My question was about the leadership ratings within squads (and teams too, for that matter). Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Well, the manual does say, after all that: From that we can conclude that a squad will have its leadership rating affected by the presence of its HQ unit. Unless I'm understanding this wrong, this would mean for example that: -1st Squad has a leader with a +0 leadership rating. It is in C2 with its platoon leader, which has a +1 rating. Therefore, so long as the two remain in C2, 1st Squad will perform with a +1 leadership rating. This would mimic reality: a leader can have a positive, inspiring effect on his subordinates, no real change in effectiveness (either good or bad), or drag a unit's effectiveness down. See also: Lieutenant Dike, Lieutenant Winters. Would this also work the other way round? If i have a -2 platoon HQ but a +2 Squadleader, will the squad then suffer from the -2 leadship of the HQ or profit from the +2 squadleader if it is in C2? Or will it perform with an overall leadership bonus of 0? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik mond Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Would this also work the other way round? If i have a -2 platoon HQ but a +2 Squadleader, will the squad then suffer from the -2 leadship of the HQ or profit from the +2 squadleader if it is in C2? Or will it perform with an overall leadership bonus of 0? Very good question. Its easy to see the individual effect of leadership on its own unit, but what about the C2 leadership effect. And, Is this also affected by distance. If Plt HQ is +2 and it is in close contact to a low leadership squads, does it boost by +2? And if that range suddenly changes to distant visual contact does the influence drop to +1. "Leaders fulfill two very important functions: they exert a leadership modifier on their subordinate units, and link units to the Command and Control (C2) network." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Some tests have been conducted that have been claimed to show that HQ leaders make no difference to the performance of their subordinate units at any range. From what I recall, I think the methodology was a bit suspect though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I am fairly certain from my own observations that units in C2 regain moral faster than units out of C2. What is not known is if the HQ unit's leadership rating affects the degree of effect on subordinate units. As womble pointed out, some earlier testing of dubious nature suggested that it does not, or at least that if it does it is a much smaller effect than that of the subordinate units' own leader rating. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulverisor64 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 In some games you can view game behavior characteristics within game data files. It seems as if there should be a series of numbers to coincide with some of these effects but I certainly don't see it within this game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 From my experiences in testing scenarios, it seems to me that Leadership modifiers add a very small multiplier to a range of unit behaviors. The boys are just a little quicker on the uptake, pass info along better, stay on task a little longer, etc. Leadership has an effect across all the other specific modifier types. The same unit traits that are covered by Motivation, Experience, Morale, Fitness... all of these can be affected over the course of a battle by the leadership modifier of both the unit and directly superior HQ. Good luck quantifying it. It seems to be a tiny .01-type variable that is also subject to many other situational variables. Bottom line in a game engine sense... if you are a QB player ... +1 is worth it for HQs, tanks, zooks and other heavy weapons. Stacking(CO/plt/squad) doesn't make for uber-troopers, but may make you think "wow what a lucky shot" every now and then. I have tried, gamey b@st@rd that I am. Charles doesn't give stuff away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 I think that answers my questions on the subject about as well as will be until BFC pipes up with an official reply. Thanks all. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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