ASL Veteran Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 True. Looks excactly like that. I'm also thinking if the TacAI considers the target an MG rather than an object/structure, and therefore uses HE too much. From what I can tell, firing HE at bunkers was standard practice at the time. AP just wasn't used. If it takes a Beehive demolition charge to penetrate or destroy a bunker then a 75mm AP round isn't going to do anything to it. I believe that the HE was fired to suppress the bunker occupants and the close range detonations would cause a great deal of discomfort to those inside the bunker. A dozer tank would then push dirt over the apertures and seal the bunker occupants inside. (something you can't do in CM, not only because the game doesn't allow it but because the bunkers themselves are just sitting on the ground naked - unlike how they would be IRL). So in reality a tank should basically never be firing AP at a bunker, at least in WW2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks ASL Veteran for giving a historic background I didn't know of. But in that case, AP rounds shouldn't be fired at all in game, and definitely not knock out the bunker. HE shells should make the crew suppressed. I'm not sure how this is represented in game, because visually no crew member cower, but maybe they act as suppressed, i. e. stop firing. I wonder if crew IRL would bail out of a bunker when under heavy suppression? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks ASL Veteran for giving a historic background I didn't know of. But in that case, AP rounds shouldn't be fired at all in game, and definitely not knock out the bunker. HE shells should make the crew suppressed. I'm not sure how this is represented in game, because visually no crew member cower, but maybe they act as suppressed, i. e. stop firing. I wonder if crew IRL would bail out of a bunker when under heavy suppression? Yes, bunker crews should be subject to suppression. From what I have read, the occupants of a bunker will suffer ear damage and concrete dust makes the air thick and almost unbreathable. Bunker crews should probably never leave a bunker unless they are surrendering because if it is so bad inside the bunker that the occupants feel the need to leave it, the area outside the bunker is probably not safe enough to allow anyone to leave it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I ran another short test and it seems MG crews in bunkers do fire even when suppression meter is full. Ran in scenario author mode, not sure if it states "Pinned" in that mode or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I ran another short test and it seems MG crews in bunkers do fire even when suppression meter is full. Ran in scenario author mode, not sure if it states "Pinned" in that mode or not. Yes, when an AI unit is pinned it will say pinned on the unit. When in test mode you see everything as though you commanded everything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kch001 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Any possibility of making the bunkers "Pak 38/40"-sized for spotting purposes? I think it would be great if we could have a bit more of a camouflage effect for them, as it would be normal to assume that they would be heavily camouflaged (same thing should ideally apply to vehicles that haven't moved since scenario start, but I realise that a tank camouflaged in a forest waiting to ambush, is not the same thing as a tank stopped on a road that simply hasnt moved yet). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronCat60 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Ok guy's there is a simple explanation for this. That is the Fuhrer's bunker and they are holding out till he commits suicide. Then you should be able to blast them when they open the back door to take his body outside for a sour-kraut roast. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 From what I can tell, firing HE at bunkers was standard practice at the time. AP just wasn't used. For what it's worth, somebody posted a video some time ago of AP rounds (57mm?) against a concrete pillbox. It looked like the AP chewed up the concrete effectively, it needed a couple of hits but then started breaking up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 For what it's worth, somebody posted a video some time ago of AP rounds (57mm?) against a concrete pillbox. It looked like the AP chewed up the concrete effectively, it needed a couple of hits but then started breaking up. If it is just concrete then it probably would go through it but pillboxes usually have a steel shell and the concrete is reinforced. There is also typically piles of earth up around the exterior. If a 57mm AP could take out a bunker easily then there wouldn't be a need for the Beehive demolition charge and you wouldn't need a dozer tank to cover up the firing ports. All you would have to do is drive a Sherman up and pop, pop, pop, just watch the bunkers explode. There is no evidence that it was that simple. On the contrary, there is evidence that both sides were working on armored vehicles with very large guns to take out bunkers - see the US monster assault gun they were just getting into the experimental stage. I think it was the T18? I don't remember exactly now but it was a big vehicle with a big gun. The 155mm self propelled artillery piece was also used by the US in such a role. Once again, why would all that be necessary if all you needed was a 57mm. It doesn't make any sense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I did some more testing and it seems that crew in MG bunkers never get "pinned". Not even after 25 straight HE hits. Not even when a penetrating shot kills 4 crewmembers. That just doesn't seem right. Since they don't cower either - is this due to the confined graphics of the bunker? Would it be possible to have them in "pinned" status, even though they don't cower. If pinned, it would be easier for the final assault on a bunker with zooks and demo charges. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I did some more testing and it seems that crew in MG bunkers never get "pinned". Not even after 25 straight HE hits. Not even when a penetrating shot kills 4 crewmembers. That just doesn't seem right. Since they don't cower either - is this due to the confined graphics of the bunker? Would it be possible to have them in "pinned" status, even though they don't cower. If pinned, it would be easier for the final assault on a bunker with zooks and demo charges. My guess would be that bunkers are probably treated as vehicles and only have the morale characteristics of vehicle crews. I don't think tank crews get pinned, therefore bunker occupants probably don't get pinned. It is probably a game code limitation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I "know" (I can see the pictures in my head, so it must be true ) bunker inhabitants used, at some stage of development of the game, to cower. Something has changed, I reckon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I hope they could go back to that without needing to much programming. As it is now, they can always shoot back if a juicy target gets close, when they really should be hugging the floor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I'm pretty sure that you can pin bunker crew, at least those in wooden bunkers. They will never seem to be covering, and I don't think it says "pinned" either, but if their suppression meter is full, they are very unlikely to fire back. However, the meter falls very quickly, so you need to pour on a lot of firepower. The amount needed seems to go up exponentially with range. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Think it´s also similar to "normal" vehicles, that there´s a difference with "crew" and "riders". I think the first unit to occupy a pillbox is the actual "crew" and any unit entering, taking remaining seats (9 max), is treated somewhat differently. I seem to remember that at one time, at least the "riders" can be ordered to hide, although this was never presented visually? Personally I don´t like the way pillboxes are modelled in the game and just a limited amount of historical engagements involving fortifications, can be recreated halfway realistic. I keep voting for a "neutral" structure, like a hardenend building instead, usable by both opponents if occupied. Doesn´t need to replace the current vehicle pillboxes entirely, but could make at least a scenario maker object to toy with and see if it could work in general. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Think it´s also similar to "normal" vehicles, that there´s a difference with "crew" and "riders". I think the first unit to occupy a pillbox is the actual "crew" and any unit entering, taking remaining seats (9 max), is treated somewhat differently. I seem to remember that at one time, at least the "riders" can be ordered to hide, although this was never presented visually? Personally I don´t like the way pillboxes are modelled in the game and just a limited amount of historical engagements involving fortifications, can be recreated halfway realistic. I keep voting for a "neutral" structure, like a hardenend building instead, usable by both opponents if occupied. Doesn´t need to replace the current vehicle pillboxes entirely, but could make at least a scenario maker object to toy with and see if it could work in general. I fully agree, I would also like to see something substantial done with bunkers and fortifications in general.. Edited July 18, 2015 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Expanding the engineering game is one of the things that Steve has said is on his wishlist for another version of CM. I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possiblity to do such a thing within the CMx2 engine. Refining bunker behaviour might come under that general umbrella... We can hope. I still think it was different, at some point in the past. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Expanding the engineering game is one of the things that Steve has said is on his wishlist for another version of CM. I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possiblity to do such a thing within the CMx2 engine. Refining bunker behaviour might come under that general umbrella... We can hope. I still think it was different, at some point in the past. Maybe the current behaviour was accidentally caused by a later patch - could be a bug that remains under the radar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I came across another example of MG bunker (concrete) not getting suppressed. I had two Shermans pounding a bunker head on for five minutes, explosions going off every second or two, along with Sherman MGs. And still the bunker crew calmly picked off infantry targets some 300 m away in the open. I just doesn't seem right. I'm ok with the bunker not getting knocked out, but if I was part of a crew having explosions head on like that, I sure wouldn't man the MG any time soon. Let alone hitting targets with ease. I'm going to do some more testing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 You can't suppress vehicles, although I do believe their performance degrades with increasing suppression on meter and decreasing morale. Bunkers are vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 I am aware that a vehicle can't be suppressed, but I wish units inside one would be. A unit in the open is suppressed by close hits and not only direct hits. I set up a test. Two Shermans 350 m away from a concrete MR bunker on flat open map. At 5 min a reinforcement of one Jeep with a FO team appear next to the Shermans. Prior to that the Shermans target the bunker and fire main gun and MGs at it for the full 5 min. This is what the bunker looked like and what the crew faced. Yet, when the Jeep appeared, it was spotted within 5 sec, hit at 15 sec and taken out at 25 sec. It just doesn't seem right. Seems like the perfect weapon since penetrations from the front almost never cause casualties (unlike wooden bunker) and you need to go around it. Put it up against a house/wall and some mines and you're good to go. Is there any possibility that this behaviour can be changed in future game engine upgrades? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Bunker overhaul is HIGH on my wishlist Would be nice with some concrete damage decals too, instead of the hole-in-metal type. But of course the important thing is the gameplay. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vencini Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) I came across another example of MG bunker (concrete) not getting suppressed. I had two Shermans pounding a bunker head on for five minutes, explosions going off every second or two, along with Sherman MGs. And still the bunker crew calmly picked off infantry targets some 300 m away in the open. I just doesn't seem right. I'm ok with the bunker not getting knocked out, but if I was part of a crew having explosions head on like that, I sure wouldn't man the MG any time soon. Let alone hitting targets with ease. I'm going to do some more testing.Hello, another Titanium / Adamantium bunker here.I remembered read a tread about that and finally I found it. I'm doing a test scenario for a person and we have found this behavior too... CMFI with the last 3.0 patch updated. German paratroopers inside (it's an scenario about Ortona) Incoming Sherman fire from laterals and front, during, at least, five minutes. I stopped to preserve ammunition. WP mortar rounds, MG fire and still the soldiers inside return fire. Any news about that ?Best regards Edited December 2, 2015 by Vencini regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) No news that I'm aware of...The next best thing is to substitute Concrete Bunkers (Scenario Editor) with Wooden, and problem temporarily solved.Then someone can come up with a Mod that makes Wooden Bunkers look like Concrete if you will. Joe Edited December 2, 2015 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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