The Titanium Bunker

[LiveNoMore]

My Sherman spotted this bunker dug into a hill overlooking the road I need clear. He first attacked with 75 mm AP rounds from the side about 50 yards away. No affect. I then told him to try hitting it from the rear. He did and again no affect. Now he is facing it at about 12 yards blasting the gun port in the front. For 11 turns he has gone after this Titanium Reinforced bunker without even killing one of the men inside. He has used all of his AP rounds and half the HE.

[LiveNoMore]

http://imageshack.us/a/img90/2814/titaniumbunker2.jpg]

[John Kettler]

LiveNoMore,

I don't have the game, but your screenshot appears to show a projectile has gone clean through the bunker and exploded behind it. If that's a U.S. Sherman, your AP is really a variety of APHE, so such a result is possible. All of your AP on one bunker? No dead bunker? Highly unlikely! I have no explanation, other than an incredible string of awful "die rolls" when it comes to the HE through the embrasure, though. Have you tried the firing the coax to see what that does. Can you Smoke the thing and assault it with infantry while it can't see? I'd suggest trying the .50, but if the occupants of the bunker are functioning, you'd be out a TC AND most of your ammo load!

If you've got Save Games and such, I'm sure Phil Culliton would love to see them. Good luck!

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

Well, people have been complaining that concrete bunkers were a bit too easy to blast into rubble... Have they been tweaked in FI 1.01, and if so, has it gone a little far?

[YankeeDog]

Hmmm... I wonder if this is the old "unabandonable bunker" bug rearing its ugly head again... I thought this bug had been fixed, but maybe not all instances.

I haven't seen this in a while, but in earlier versions of CMBN there used to be a rare bug where a bunker could get knocked out, but an infantry unit inside the bunker could somehow get "stuck" and not leave the knocked-out bunker as they are supposed to. The infantry unit inside the bunker then be in a sort of limbo state, unable to fire out of the bunker, but also extremely well shielded from incoming fire.

LiveNoMore, if you have a save game and can check: Is the bunker unit itself still "green" status and not knocked out? If so, then what you are seeing is something different from what I describe above. However, if the bunker unit is red "Knocked Out", but the infantry unit is still inside the bunker and healthy, then I strongly suspect that what you are seeing is this old bug, risen from the dead...

[LiveNoMore]

The bunker is green and the MG inside is busy firing at my INF scattered below. The round that appears to have gone through actually bounced off. I finally managed to get a bazooka team behind it and after 4 rounds, it is now taking damage. 3 of the MG team have been killed. I'm hoping it will be KO'ed in the next turn.

Unfortunately, the Sherman is still out of AP rounds and my opponent is sending a StugIII in that direction!

[c3k]

Why haven't you moved a flamethrower up to it?

[c3k]

Joking aside (the flamethrower comment was, obviously, tongue in cheek), at first this seems WAY off. A few thoughts...

The AP properties of the medium velocity Sherman is poor, when compared to the 76mm variant, the German 75L45/48/70 weapons, 88L56/71, 17 pounder, etc.

If I made a concrete bunker, I'd like to imagine that I'd make it of THICK, heavily re-bar'ed, hardened concrete. How does that hold up to point blank medium velocity 75mm rounds? How do those rounds hold up?

Sure, I'd imagine that I could hit the aperture, but remember that you may be seeing a simplified representation of an aperture. Similarly, perhaps some rounds are going in, whoosh!, then embedding in the sandbags, stacked 6 deep, lining the back wall. Shrug.

Line up a series of weapons (as listed above) and let's see if some penetrate better than others. Perhaps concrete bunkers are too resistant. Perhaps they represent 6-8 foot thick SERIOUS fortifications.

HE should be nearly worthless against the structure.

Ken

[MikeyD]

I can't recall bunkers standing up to pummeling by 75mm Sherman before. I believe (I may be wrong) that CMFI early war Sherman AP lacks burster charge so firing on a concrete bunker might be like firing on a Tiger. Sounds like something to do some testing on. See if you've spotted a problem or simply have had the worst luck of anyone ever attacking a Bunker! :eek:

[Erwin]

Surely some HE and MG bullets would be going in the embrasure and killing the crew.

[Brindlewolf]

I was playing on the second scenario of Allies Campaign.Finally got up that bastard of a hill and setting about the first bunker whilst behind it.TC takes 9 turns to take it out from the back,using up all its ammo with a whole platoon on overwatch.Finally the bunker is knocked out and out pop 3 scouts with mp 40s and grenade the TC,killing everyone bar the driver and then set about routing the entire platoon.

Those guys just wouldn't die.Terminators on Acid.Cue rage quit

[Wodin]

If it was so easy to knock out concrete fortifications I'm sure so many dead wouldn't have been left on the beach...

The Germans used reinforced concrete aswell...take an awful lot to get through it. I expect you'd be driven mad by the noise and concussion or the concussion kills you which as we all know killed many troops over the years that where hold up in bunkers etc though and I doubt concussion is modeled.

[YankeeDog]

If it was so easy to knock out concrete fortifications I'm sure so many dead wouldn't have been left on the beach...

Sure, but on the beaches they weren't able to drive Shermans up to within 50m of the firing slits of the bunkers, and blast away.

At typical combat ranges (hundreds of meters), knocking out a well made concrete bunker from the front is very, very hard unless you have a very large weapon that can simply overkill it. At the West Wall, in some places the Allies sometimes pulled up SP 155mm guns to deal with concrete emplacements -- the shell didn't have to penetrate as the shock wave from direct hit by a shell this large usually incapacitated the crew regardless. Smaller stuff has to get through the firing slit, and that's a very small target. The stepped design of the concrete around the opening is also specifically designed to "catch" incoming projectiles, rather than deflect them into the firing slit.

But submitted to the full attention of a tank staring right into the firing slit from under 50m away, I find it very hard to believe infantry inside even a very well made concrete bunker would last more than a few shots. Even an AP shot shell without an HE burster is going to cause all sorts of secondary projectiles if it goes through the firing slit and impacts anywhere on the concrete walls inside. And bullets from MG that get inside are going to ricochet and cause all sorts of hell.

[MikeyD]

Terminators on Acid. Cue rage quit

Another thread someone asked what skill level people played their QBs at. Most everyone said Elite with fanatical motivation. Terminators on acid, indeed!

[ASL Veteran]

I read an account where American troops supported by one Sherman tank assaulted a West Wall bunker packed with a German Volksgrenadier platoon. The Engineers were repeatedly placing what they called 'Beehive' demo charges on the roof of the bunker. The Sherman tank had driven around towards the rear of the bunker and slid down into the depression where the bunker door opens out into. There was snow on the ground and they couldn't get the Sherman back out of the depression, so they just aimed the main gun at the door and started blasting away. They ended up emptying the Sherman's entire complement of ammunition into the shut bunker door. Almost all the Germans inside the bunker were killed from blast and over pressure damage from the demolition charges and the main gun rounds, but the Americans never actually broke into the bunker. Eventually the crew of the Sherman abandoned the tank and walked back to American lines.

[Wicky]

Roll up one of these on direct fire mode and see how long a bunker survives...

[Sublime]

-snip-

The Engineers were repeatedly placing what they called 'Beehive' demo charges on the roof of the bunker.

strange? Beehive demo charges? The beehive aspect sounds like behive flechette rounds but those were used/invented till the mid 60s, as they were first used in Vietnam in 1965.

edit: Oh no I'm wrong - the Beehive charge of WW2 seems to be a shaped charge used for - you guessed it - bunkers.

[Michael Emrys]

I've read in a couple of places over the years that the engineers had a charge that perfectly fit the exhaust pipe for the heating stoves inside the bunkers on the Westwall. If an engineer could get on the roof and survive, he could kill everybody inside with one blast before they knew what was going on.

Michael

[Redwolf]

Surely some HE and MG bullets would be going in the embrasure and killing the crew.

Yeah but it's firing AP, not HE.

[Bob Willett]

I'm the recipient of the fortune of having the "titanium bunker". We are using the "The First Mountain Town" map in LiveNoMore's "Sicily" scenario which we are currently play-testing. All I have in this bunker is the HMG that came with the bunker and a leader unit. The HMG is now "shakened" but the leader is "nervous". We are just about 30 mins into this 1 hr and 30 min scenario and this bunker, which was the first target of the Allies assault, and which was the closest zone that the Allies needed to control has not fallen to the allies. This lone Sherman that was assigned with numerous INF units to take out this bunker ran out of AP rounds and started driving away when he got hit from a distant STG III AP single round and took him out to pay him back for his concentrated efforts!....and I assumed this bunker would be history after the the first wave of attackers arrived..............................

[Battlefront.com]

This appears to be one of those situations where the initial call of "bug" is probably correct, but not for the reasons originally stated. I won't recover the same ground in detail, but here it is in brief:

1. Concrete Bunkers should be nearly impossible to knock out from the side. Maybe the rear (door) or front (firing slit, but not from the solid reinforced side. AP rounds are designed to go through steel, not reinforced concrete. Which is why even today there are special rounds and bombs for penetrating concrete.

2. It's damned hard to put fire right into the firing slit under general circumstances. Which is why concrete bunkers were more likely bypassed or attack from top or rear rather than from a direct frontal assault.

In short, much of what I see here doesn't concern me. But not everything

Odds should be that if the Sherman hit the firing slit enough times that, by simple virtue of the odds, one round would get in there or fragment enough of the slit edge that the crew would be put out of commission. From the description it sounds like that should have happened.

Which is to say that I think this bunker should be VERY hard to take out, but not quite this hard.

A save turn where the Sherman is blazing away, and has been for a turn or two, would be good to look into. C3K... maybe you can volunteer to check it out?

Steve

[akd]

My Sherman spotted this bunker dug into a hill overlooking the road I need clear. He first attacked with 75 mm AP rounds from the side about 50 yards away. No affect. I then told him to try hitting it from the rear. He did and again no affect. Now he is facing it at about 12 yards blasting the gun port in the front. For 11 turns he has gone after this Titanium Reinforced bunker without even killing one of the men inside. He has used all of his AP rounds and half the HE.

There are some oddities with bunker damage models. However, concrete bunkers are very vulnerable to US 75mm AP from the rear. I tested and got first round penetrations in each case. Not sure what happened here. The front and side walls of concrete bunkers are, however, proof* against all or most direct fire weapons even at point blank range.

*subject to a number of those oddities

[MikeyD]

I strongly recommend you build your own test scenario and wail on bunkers - it as hoot! If you run your test 'scenario author test mode' you'll be able to gauge the effects of fire on the enemy troops inside.

First off, Sherman has no advantage over Stuart when it comes to KOing bunkers. AP bounces off bunkers like a rubber ball, 75mm HE and 37mm HE seem to be roughly equivalent to the bunker. But stuart has the advantage of canister round which is spectacular to watch in action and the Germans do not like it. Every blast gets a firing slit penetration and the bunker crew soons panics under the hail of buckshot. Only problem in a real game is you wouldn't see 'em panicking. One bunker I managed to kill all the occupants one-by-one but the unoccupied bunker still was considered 'live'. If I wasn't in scenario author mode I would've kept bashing the thing.

[MikeyD]

Back again after more playing - I mean testing

One vexing thing appears to be a panicked mg bunker will continue to fire away. The normal rules of supression don't apply for some reason. So a panicked bunker with depleted crew behaves just about the same as an A-okay bunker and crew. You may actually be doing a great job beating on that mg bunker but under FOW there's no way of telling.

Stilll love-love-love Stuart canister blasting bunkers.

[womble]

One vexing thing appears to be a panicked mg bunker will continue to fire away. The normal rules of supression don't apply for some reason. So a panicked bunker with depleted crew behaves just about the same as an A-okay bunker and crew. You may actually be doing a great job beating on that mg bunker but under FOW there's no way of telling.

I suspect that's probably an artefact of them being vehicle-like. A paniced tank will sometimes try and return fire, for example, if it has a spotted target. Especially if it can't get away, which is something bunkers are particularly poor at.