Heat weapons firing from buildings

[WindyCityZeke]

Hi,

Just got this a week ago, all I can say is wow, this game has a ton of potential. I've played Squad Leader for many, many years and this game comes as close as any I've seen on the computer to ASL.

One thing I have to do is get used to the turns.

I've noticed that units fire Heat weapons (Baz, PS, Faust) from buildings a lot. There should be some major penalties for this. Is this modeled in the game?

Looking forward to playing this game for a long time.

[womble]

I've noticed that units fire Heat weapons (Baz, PS, Faust) from buildings a lot. There should be some major penalties for this. Is this modeled in the game?

Are you havin' a laff? Or did they allow this in v2.0 without telling us?

[Macisle]

Only PIATs should be able to fire from buildings.

Oh, and watch out...once you get a deep understanding of how much is in CMx2, it can be a real ASL killer. While ASL still has more breadth (CC, flame throwers, winter, etc.), CMx2 blows it out of the water in terms of FOW, vehicle modelling (and number of shots per minute!) and the minute details of infantry combat (among which, be sure to learn how to use the wonderful team system -scout, assault, split, AT, etc.).

Try to play on Elite level as soon as you can.

Enjoy!

[Macisle]

Just ran some tests with V2.0 of CMBN/CW to check things. No, zooks/schrecks/PFs do NOT fire from buildings.

However, I saw a Sherman 75W take TWO point-blank PF hits to the upper hull from the side and it survived, turned its turret and killed one member of the tank hunter team attacking it from behind bocage. The surviving TH member then threw his DC and knocked out the tank. Having an Armor CA on, he then had to endure small arms fire from the crew until the turn was over and I could delete the arc. I seldom see an AFV survive a PF attack, let alone TWO to the side at PB range.

In my German-side test, one Ami tank was an M10 and one the Sherman. The buttoned Sherman did not see the unhidden enemy AT teams (all with Armor CAs) in buildings as it passed them by on slow. The M10 readily did while unbuttoned, but less so buttoned.

One thing I'm noticing with V2.0--infantry pathfinding seems to be not as smooth as in 1.10/1.11. In this test and in several recent games, I've noticed cases of infantry going in the direction I've commanded them to, then reversing into harm's way, then reversing again in the direction of command. This often renders them casualties. I happens when they are first starting to move. I have seen this pre-V2.0, but I don't recall it being a problem since, perhaps V1.0. I think it was rare/gone under 1.10/1.11.

I'm not sure, but vehicle pathfinding may be bit off from 1.10/1.11, too.

[Redwolf]

I think you are confused here.

Whether the warhead on the projectile is HEAT or not plays no role wrt firing it from a building.

What matters is the propellant. In a Bazooka or a Panzerschreck the firing mechanism is a rocket from an open end tube. That creates a bit of a ruckus in the room. A PIAT on the other hand does not use a rocket as propellant although it has pretty much the same style HEAT warhead. A Panzerfaust is different still and should be somewhere in between.

I also adjusted my expectations on the negative effects of the backblast based on Iraq war. US soldiers seem to have little difficulty firing LAWs from windows if a couple of conditions are met. Obviously you see the bad guys fire RPGs from rooms all day long.

[WindyCityZeke]

I'm not confused, never mentioned the PIAT, haven't even played with the Brits yet. What I've seen is German infantry (mine in Barkman's Corner) blow the crap out of Shermans with most of the shots coming from buildings. In another scenario I had a Panther shot up badly by BAZ coming from buildings.

Now if I didn't see that correctly or something fine, but that is what it looked like to me while watching the replay. Hard to tell sometimes because this game doesn't let you see why someone died sometimes, it's very unforgiving.

Love it so far.

My biggest problem with the game so far is how much ASL I've played in the past and getting used to the 'time' difference. One Minute is NOT a turn - I have to keep telling myself before I rush everyone into the fight.

[Mord]

Yeah, you are misjudging where the attacks are coming from. PIATS are the only AT weapons that can fire from buildings. Though, I hope they'll change this at some point to allow for firing within large structures like warehouses.

Mord.

[RockinHarry]

Consider rifle grenades beeing HEAT too and it makes sense.

[Ultradave]

Going back a couple of posts, a LAAW has backblast but no where near what a Bazooka had. Just don't stand behind it.

Way back in my Army days I fired a 90mm recoilless rifle, and Holy #$$^,the blast from that would have gutted the inside of a small building. (it's like a bazooka on steroids).

[altipueri]

Panzerfausts were used in the mouseholing city fighting like in Stalingrad and Berlin to make way through walls from inside rooms and basements.

PIATS were a strange animal - I was going to write something but this copied from Wiki is similar:

Training for using the PIAT emphasized that it was best utilized from a slit trench with surprise and concealment on the side of the PIAT team, and where possible enemy armoured vehicles should be engaged from the flank or rear. It was possible to use the PIAT as a crude mortar by placing the shoulder pad of the weapon on the ground and supporting it with a monopod, giving the weapon an approximate range of 350 yards (320 m). The PIAT was often also used in combat to knock out enemy positions located in houses and bunkers.

Despite the difficulties in cocking and firing the weapon, it did have several advantages; its barrel did not have to be replaced or require high-grade materials that were expensive to produce, there was little muzzle blast that could give the user's position away, and the size of the barrel meant it could accommodate relatively large calibre munitions. However, the weapon did have drawbacks. It was very heavy and bulky, which meant that it was quite unpopular with the British and Commonwealth troops who were issued with it. There were also problems with its penetrative power; although the PIAT was theoretically able to penetrate approximately 100 millimetres (4 in) of armour, field experience during the Allied invasion of Sicily, which was substantiated by trials conducted during 1944, confirmed otherwise. During these trials, a skilled user was unable to hit a target more than 60% of the time at 100 yards (90 m), and faulty fuses meant that only 75% of the bombs fired detonated on-target

[Vanir Ausf B]

Damage to the building is expected. Damage to the shooter is not.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtzvrg_baba-amr-homs_news

[MikeyD]

One notable moment in the "Clearing the Niscemi Highway" AAR over on the CMFI board involved a Sherman being knocked out by a German rifle grenade. Surprised the German side even more than the Americans! If 'something' comes flying out of a building and nails a nearby tank it most likely was a rifle grenade. Either that or the world's luckiest grenade toss. If something that looks like a brick comes flying towards your tank its a tossed demo charge.

[JonS]

Panzerfausts were used in the mouseholing city fighting like in Stalingrad

Are you quite sure about that?

AIUI:

Final German attack in Stalingrad: early November 1942

6th Army surrounded at Stalingrad: 23 November 1942

Final surrender at Stalingrad: late Feb 1943

First operational use of Panzerfaust: Aug/Sept 1943

[altipueri]

Agenda? What are you talking about?

""Just as the Soviets had learned a lot about urban warfare, so had the Germans. The Waffen-SS did not use the makeshift barricades erected close to street corners, because these could be raked by artillery fire from guns firing over open sights further along the straight streets.[19] Instead, they put snipers and machine guns on the upper floors and the roofs - a safer deployment as the Soviet tanks could not elevate their guns that high. They also put men armed with panzerfausts in cellar windows to ambush tanks as they moved down the streets. These tactics were quickly adopted by the Hitler Youth and the First World War Volkssturm veterans.[19]

To counter these tactics, Soviet sub-machine gunners rode the tanks and sprayed every doorway and window, but this meant the tank could not traverse its turret quickly. The other solution was to rely on heavy howitzers (152 mm and 203 mm) firing over open sights to blast defended buildings and to use anti-aircraft guns against defenders posted on the higher floors.[19]

Soviet combat groups started to move from house to house instead of directly down the streets. They moved through the apartments and cellars blasting holes through the walls of adjacent buildings (for which the Soviets found abandoned German panzerfausts were very effective), while others fought across the roof tops and through the attics.[19]

These tactics took the Germans lying in ambush for tanks in the flanks. Flamethrowers and grenades were very effective, but as the Berlin civilian population had not been evacuated these tactics inevitably killed many civilians

[2SquadsUp]

Agenda? What are you talking about?

""Just as the Soviets had learned a lot about urban warfare, so had the Germans. The Waffen-SS did not use the makeshift barricades erected close to street corners, because these could be raked by artillery fire from guns firing over open sights further along the straight streets.[19] Instead, they put snipers and machine guns on the upper floors and the roofs - a safer deployment as the Soviet tanks could not elevate their guns that high. They also put men armed with panzerfausts in cellar windows to ambush tanks as they moved down the streets. These tactics were quickly adopted by the Hitler Youth and the First World War Volkssturm veterans.[19]

To counter these tactics, Soviet sub-machine gunners rode the tanks and sprayed every doorway and window, but this meant the tank could not traverse its turret quickly. The other solution was to rely on heavy howitzers (152 mm and 203 mm) firing over open sights to blast defended buildings and to use anti-aircraft guns against defenders posted on the higher floors.[19]

Soviet combat groups started to move from house to house instead of directly down the streets. They moved through the apartments and cellars blasting holes through the walls of adjacent buildings (for which the Soviets found abandoned German panzerfausts were very effective), while others fought across the roof tops and through the attics.[19]

These tactics took the Germans lying in ambush for tanks in the flanks. Flamethrowers and grenades were very effective, but as the Berlin civilian population had not been evacuated these tactics inevitably killed many civilians

I believe that's the Battle for Berlin you're quoting.

[MikeyD]

If you look at pictures of Berlin 1945 you'll see the concept of 'enclosed space' is a realtive one. Block after block of hollowed-out shells, collapsed facades,bombed & blasted buildings without windows or roofs. Sure someone fired a faust from an upper storey. Was there a roof? Were there any windows? Was it a conscript Volksturm or Hitler Youth firing his weapon for the first and last time?

[John Kettler]

WindyCityZeke,

We had a considerable discussion recently on firing various HEAT weapons, which weren't rifle grenades, from balconies and also buildings. Much can be learned from reading this, and we present some seriously attention getting videos to back our arguments.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=107226&highlight=bazookas%2C+buildings

Regards,

John Kettler

[altipueri]

@2SquadsUp

As someone whose location is given as Canada you may already know about "Little Stalingrad" :

The Germans also concealed various machine guns and anti-tank emplacements throughout the town, making movement by armour and infantry increasingly difficult. The house to house fighting was vicious and the Canadians made use of a new tactic: "mouse-holing". This tactic involved using weapons such as the PIAT (or even cumbersome anti-tank guns) to breach the walls of a building, as houses within Ortona shared adjoining walls. The soldiers would then throw in grenades and assault through the mouse holes, clearing the top floors and making their way down, where both adversaries struggled in repeated close-quarters combat. Mouse-holing was also used to pierce through walls into adjoining rooms, sometimes catching enemy troops by surprise. The tactic would be used repeatedly as assaulting through the streets inflicted heavy casualties on both Canadian and German troops. Later, in a particularly deadly incident, German Fallschirmjäger engineer Karl Bayerlein demolished an entire house packed with Canadian soldiers; only one soldier survived. The Canadians retaliated by demolishing another building on top of two German squads, killing them all.

After six days of intense combat, 2nd Brigade's third battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, joined the battle together with tanks from 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade's Three Rivers Regiment (Régiment de Trois-Rivières).

[2SquadsUp]

It's almost to the day that the fighting in Ortona began. Some of the most bitter fighting of a very bitter campaign up the coast of Italy. I wish mouseholing was available as a tactic in CMBN but would be impossible to model I'm sure. But yes a terrible battle who's lessons would be applied to Caen a year later.

[Broadsword56]

In CM you can blast from one adjoining building wall and through another, and then move from one building to the next using demo charges. But there are never enough demo charges available in-game to advance through an entire city block that way. One help would be to make demo charges acquirable from engineer trucks, or to have pre-positionable ammo and demo charge dumps placeable on maps. This seems like something BFC will have to figure out by the time they get to the Ostfront, Berlin, etc.

[Brent Pollock (WBRP)]

In CMAK I realised that if you were close enough to the wall when you Deployed, sometimes one half-squad would magically appear on the opposite side.

[womble]

In CM you can blast from one adjoining building wall and through another, and then move from one building to the next using demo charges. But there are never enough demo charges available in-game to advance through an entire city block that way. One help would be to make demo charges acquirable from engineer trucks, or to have pre-positionable ammo and demo charge dumps placeable on maps. This seems like something BFC will have to figure out by the time they get to the Ostfront, Berlin, etc.

There seem to be a lot more breaching charges per team that carries them in FI.