M3 GMC Can not fire.Why?

[weapon2010]

3 crew members and no damage to main gun.When you goto to target, only the face command appears.

[herr_oberst]

Ammo status?

[weapon2010]

ammo is good

both types in mid twenty

[vossiewulf1212]

I thought it had four crew? Isn't the gunner dead? I've definitely seen them refuse to fire when they get down to 2 crew, and I got them firing again by loading up a two man FO team.

[womble]

Have you patched? The patch fixed a bug where no crewman would step up to the gunner's plate if he was redered hors de combat.

[John Kettler]

weapon2010,

In the first shot, in looking at the display, I, like herr_oberst, thought you might be out of ammo. That idea is evidently wrong. You have plenty of ammo. No one appears suppressed, either. I've never had an M3 GMC, since I live in CMBN, but that in no way cripples my ability to research.

(digs briefly)

Aha! I have no idea whether or not you started short crewed, but you're supposed to have 5 crew members, not 3: Gun Commander, Gunner, Loader, Driver and Assistant Driver. Note: List as given at link is incorrect (see Tank Destroyer Weapons) below for proof.

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/75mmgmcm3.html

In my opinion, the M3 GMC should still be fightable, but much more slowly. The commander should be able to operate the gun, with the loader, well, loading. There may be coding in place preventing this from happening, but I would expect the commander to know how to run the gun. After all, there's no assistant gunner back there, so who else would logically step in if the gunner's wounded or killed?

(more digging)

Thought so! TD crews are completely cross trained. Please see pages 6 and 7 from the first part of Tank Destroyer Gunnery, August 1943

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/images/stories/ManualPDFs/Tank_Destroyer_Gunnery_Pt_1.pdf

Here is who's supposed to be doing what and how. Armed with this and some trainable people, you could probably run an M3 75mm gun GMC yourself. The crew really consists of Destroyer Commander, Gunner, Assistant Gunner, Loader, Driver, per below.

Tank Destroyer Weapons

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/images/stories/ArticlePDFs/TD_Weapons_Chap11_Complete.pdf

The TD would be hurting considerably being down 40% on crew, but it still should work. What baffles me about this is that I see no crew casualty symbology. When my AFVs get hit, the crew bails. Maybe I don't know what to look for?

Regards,

John Kettler

[weapon2010]

its patched

has 3 crew men

no one has answered why it can not fire, does not make any sense

[stikkypixie]

its patched

has 3 crew men

no one has answered why it can not fire, does not make any sense

From the picture there is a loader, a driver and a commander. Does the commander have a dual role?

[vossiewulf1212]

its patched

has 3 crew men

no one has answered why it can not fire, does not make any sense

I think it's still bugged, they should be able to still fire, just at lower efficiency/accuracy. Try loading up a two man team, bet you it starts firing again.

[Wicky]

Sounds odd - as it was supposedly patched

CMFI v1.01 WHATS NEW M3 GMC and T30 halftracks correctly move a crewman to replace a howitzer gunner casualty.

As suggested dismount the crew and mount up the unit's HQ crew.

[noob]

I was going to report the same thing with a Semovente 75mm, i lost one of the three crew and couldn't fire, no target line, so, as mentioned, one would expect it still to be able to fire, albeit at a reduced rate.

[vossiewulf1212]

Sounds odd - as it was supposedly patched

As suggested dismount the crew and mount up the unit's HQ crew.

No, I meant if they're down crew you can load up replacements. If they're down to three, load up a two man team and that team will man the guns and it will start firing again. I did this in a scenario recently when I had the same problem.

[womble]

Sounds odd - as it was supposedly patched...

As was the deploy time bug (according to Phil on here, though it wasn't in the patch notes), but that seems to have fallen out before the patch release too.

[Pvt. Ryan]

When I had this problem before the patch I would bail out the crew and then put them back in. That would fix it.

[renaldo1]

I have the same issue mentionned by noob with a Semovente where I lost one of the 3 crew. But bailing them out and putting them back in doesn't fix it for the Semovente. Incidentally it was the driver that was the casualty so there's no question about the ability of the other 2 crew to operate the gun. Of course, if they were doing that then I would expect a penalty in time it takes to stop firing and move in the event that they get into trouble - including of course a penalty to stop firing, turn the vehicle and re-fire at a target ouside the gun's limited arc. But I would still expect they could do it.

So the question is for the Semovente whether this is a bug or is design intent?

[bobo]

So there are two dead bodies in the half track and they should still be fighting?

Not sure that would happen if it were me in the half track regardless of doctrine....

Bobo

[John Kettler]

bobo,

"One man down" drills are standard in Tank Destroyer training, and when things deteriorate, as in the case you cite, you fight until you can't fight any more. The Russians used to have a preloaded antitank gun, crewed by one man. This way, if the firing position got hit and the gun survived, there were still most of the crew and an intact ammunition supply to carry on the fight. Once that preloaded round was fired, another would be brought up, loaded, and the process would begin again.

If the Russians could do that, theoretically you can continue to fight your Tank Destroyer. Whether or not that's doable in the game, I don't know. From a basic weapon operation perspective, I see no reason why it shouldn't work. Naturally, training, morale, fatigue state, motivation, weather and other factors will affect the in game aspects. Then there's tradition. Artillery has a long tradition of fighting the guns to the last, if the tactical situation requires it. The Royal Horse Artillery tradition is expressed as follows:

"The role of the Royal Artilleryman is, as it has ever been, to fight his gun, forgetful of self, to the last round in support of other arms."

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

The Russians used to have a preloaded antitank gun, crewed by one man. This way, if the firing position got hit...

I believe, if distant memory is correct, the Brits in the desert war figured a 2 pdr anti-tank gun in a battle would typically fire just six rounds before being destroyed. There's a difference between typical and average of course. A huge number of guns never getting off a shot while 1 or 2 firing away til they were depleted of ammo, But for the most part if you found yourself in a position to fire during a fight it was 5-6 rounds. You or him.

One oddity with M3 GMC and T30 in the game. If your crew is attritted you can withdraw, bail/dismount the crew, then replace them with anyone else you got handy. An infantry team or HQ if they're the right number. Too many won't fit and too few are as bad as having casualties.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

Hadn't heard the Western Desert anecdote, though JasonC might love it, especially given the observation which followed. I know the Russians reckoned the service life of a tank as 24 hours, I believe, once committed to battle. This was true throughout at least the mid 1980s, based on study which appeared in the classified quarterly, JOURNAL OF DEFENSE RESEARCH.

For a look at how well the "replace with anyone else" model worked, may I suggest seeing or reading what 3AD ordnance officer Belton Cooper said on the matter? "Those poor boys..."

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vinnart]

I don't have full game, but in the demo it would not fire HMG. Mine was out of 75mm with full crew with enemy in sight with light blue line. I faced the HMG toward the enemy, and it would not fire. I hope that is fixed in full game. A 50 cal up at the point would have done much damage to enemy out in the open.

[Michael Emrys]

I wonder if Target Light might have worked in that situation.

Michael

[Vinnart]

I wonder if Target Light might have worked in that situation.

Michael

There is no "Target light" command available for the M3 Gmc. Perhaps there is a bug here with it missing, but the crew should have fired the HMG on it's own anyway.