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Are all open British Tank Commanders summarily executed?


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Obviously those armoured chaps took their school teacher's exhortations of "healthy spine healthy mind" to heart, unlike the slouching Yank johnnies who lounge around, and generally look very scruffy and unkempt. I wonder if the Krupp steel-spines of the Panzerwaffe are equally penalised, or does being German allow a highly protective, yet disciplined stance to be taken?

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Clearly those commanders haven't deployed their Mk.IIa*, Mug, Enamelled, Tea, Armoured, 1 Pint. If they were holding that, while peering out of their turret hatches they'd be nearly invincible. Everyone knows that a 1-pint armoured tea mug, when deployed correctly in alternating positions between the chest and face, offers far more protection than a 50-cal HMG.

Only works if its strong tea with condensed milk and two sugars.

.

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Problem I've noticed is that when some (British in this case) tank commanders are shot at they just sit there for a while and don't button up immediatly. I'm hearing MG fire rattling off the Sherman's chasis and the commander is just sitting there enjoying a spot of tea. Sure enough the second or third burst takes him out.

I don't mind higher mortality rates for tank commanders but surely even the most poorly or highly trained tank commander buttons up immediatly when he hear's a nearby rifle shot.

I've seen this myself, TC's just seem slow to react to incoming small arms fire.

I'm glad they made the change (if in fact they did), to make open tanks more vulnerable but now they need to tweak the AI to make the TC's button up faster.

Sometimes I remember to button my tanks but many times I forget and my TC's pay the price for it. TC's should really be able to do this on their on unless they are green or inexperienced. BF fix or do somefink!!! ;)

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Depends... what if said rifle shot is fired with the express intention of buttoning the tank, so that another trooper with a panzerfaust can take a shot will less chance of being spotted? Should the TC go immediately under cover, or keep his head out of the hatch and try to spot where the rifle shot and/or panzerfaust are coming from?

The situational of a WWII tank crew is DRAMATICALLY reduced when buttoned. So when deciding whether to get down inside the turret or not, the TC has to weigh his own safety against the need to spot new threats.

It's a tricky balance, and while it may need tweaking in the game, but in general I would not assume that TCs should simply button in response to ANY threat; there is probably some threshold that needs to be reached before the TC goes under cover. Exactly what this threshold should be is, of course, open to debate.

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It's a tricky balance, and while it may need tweaking in the game, but in general I would not assume that TCs should simply button in response to ANY threat; there is probably some threshold that needs to be reached before the TC goes under cover. Exactly what this threshold should be is, of course, open to debate.

I agree that to code the correct AI behavior there must be a threshold or trigger and it would seem to me that it should be the same trigger as used by dismounted infantry. When their suppression level reaches a certain point they cower or hug the ground. I guess the question should be at what level of suppression are TC's buttoning up on their own?

If I were to write an SOP for a unit in my command it would be to button up before entering into any built up area or an area where contact with infantry is expected/likely and not wait until you hear bullets bouncing off the hull. Of course I know how BF feels about coding SOP's and I realize this is a difficult thing to get right to everyone's satisfaction.

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I recall over on the CMSF chat site someone had posted that is was a humvee roof gunner's 'job' to stay topside when the bullets are flying. This was in response to a similar debate of when the unit should be ducking down and taking cover. Similarly, a tank commander's job is to be the eyes and ears of the tank. He can't do his job cowering in the turret. and when the bullets are flying is precisely the time he most needs to be doing his job.

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I recall over on the CMSF chat site someone had posted that is was a humvee roof gunner's 'job' to stay topside when the bullets are flying. This was in response to a similar debate of when the unit should be ducking down and taking cover. Similarly, a tank commander's job is to be the eyes and ears of the tank. He can't do his job cowering in the turret. and when the bullets are flying is precisely the time he most needs to be doing his job.

I can promise you that bullets flying around is one thing and rounds striking your vehicle is a totally different thing entirely because those rounds are meant for you. I would say in those circumstances that even most battle hardened vets are going to duck or grab some dirt even if its just for a moment or two.

Also a TC unlike a roof gunner has a way to see and fight back even when he ducks down inside the turret.

Perhaps our pixel TC's need a duck animation similar to the way infantry cower when they are pinned. This would allow them to duck down inside the turret and recover from suppression before popping up again...

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Can we get a response from BF on this? I am finding it harder and harder to play the CW, with their TC's riding high in the turret and being picked off at an alarming rate by 9mm pistols. I button them up and they cannot spot grunts in the open at 30 meters.

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I think the dictum for armoured units is observation over preservation, ie risk the commander, not the whole crew. Trouble with the BF model is that TC's vary their posture dependant on the perceived level of threat. From one extreme, standing on the turret to peer over obstacles, to standing up to con a tank, to just poking their eyes over the hatch rim.

I like the idea of a temporary duck down, then head back up to scan. Personally I would have thought artillery and snipers were the greatest causers of casualties, not individual soldiers, most of whom could not hit a barn in combat, especially with pistols.

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On Tue, 27th June 1944, 10 Troop were ordered to make a right flank attack on the village of Grainville-sur-Odon. After a short while, the infantry with whom they were co-operating reported the centre of the village to be held by Panther Tanks, and withdrew. the tanks were ordered to advance through a plantation to the church in the centre of the town. When 100 yards away they met with heavy anti-tank fire and the Troop Sergeant's tank was knocked out, Corporal Virgo, knowing that his tank was jamming in reverse gear whenever he engaged it, advanced with his Troop Leader.

From very close range, one of his bogey wheels was shot out. The tanks met with heavy anti-tank and machine-gun fire from less than 100 yds range. It was necessary to change positions constantly to secure alternate covering fire positions in the plantation.

On at least two occasions, under intense fire, Cpt. Virgo got on to the back of his tank and, with a crowbar, manhandled the gear rods out of reverse. The crowbar was, on one occasion, knocked out of his hand by a bullet, but he picked it up and carried on. There were several snipers in the trees at the time and Corporal Virgo seeing one firing from close range whilst on the back of the tank, shot him with his pistol before getting back into the tank to continue firing on the centre of the town.

Later, in the same plantation, he went back to the Troop Sergeant's tank which was by this time burning fiercely. Again he dismounted, and with Ammunition from the burning tank bursting near him, and heavy enemy fire, he fearlessly did his best to protect Sgt. Simmons who was seriously wounded from the burning ammunition and enemy fire. He then mounted his tank again and brought it up to his Troop Leader and remained there firing less than 100 yards from the Church, until ordered to withdraw.

During the whole of the 30 minutes during which Corporal Virgo was in the plantation, he showed great courage, initiative and powers of leadership. This coolness in the face of enemy fire was magnificent.

Perhaps shooting TC's isn't always easy. :)

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Perhaps shooting TC's isn't always easy. :)

On at least two occasions, under intense fire, Cpt. Virgo got on to the back of his tank and, with a crowbar, manhandled the gear rods out of reverse. The crowbar was, on one occasion, knocked out of his hand by a bullet, but he picked it up and carried on. There were several snipers in the trees at the time and Corporal Virgo seeing one firing from close range whilst on the back of the tank, shot him with his pistol before getting back into the tank to continue firing on the centre of the town.

Hey maybe our uber aggressive pistol toting tank crews aren't so far off the mark!

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I'd suspect that the good Corporal would fall into the category of "Outlier" in several aspects ;)

Well apparently as soon as he allowed the crowbar to be shot out of his hand he was demoted from capt to corporal. That apparently pissed him off so much that he was willing to fight snipers with a pistol.

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Well apparently as soon as he allowed the crowbar to be shot out of his hand he was demoted from capt to corporal. That apparently pissed him off so much that he was willing to fight snipers with a pistol.

Hehe, he was a corporal three times and only a captain once, so I guess he was getting used to it ;)

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  • 1 month later...

In FM 100-5 Operations, the U.S. Army reported that tank effectiveness dropped 50% when buttoned. Considering how little can be seen from within a buttoned tank, let alone one bouncing about with the world exploding, I'd call that generous. Of course, the optics by then were way better than in World War II. The U.S. Army was well aware of the high Israeli TC casualties in the Yom Kippur War and came up with the ingenious hatch on the M1 Abrams in which the TC could be head out, thus able to effectively fight his tank, yet still be protected from overhead fire.

As far as this discussion goes, it might be helpful to look at period pics and see if the CW TCs generally had more of their bodies exposed than did the Americans. Seems to me that would be worth knowing.

Regards,

John Kettler

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"On at least two occasions, under intense fire, Cpt. Virgo got on to the back of his tank and, with a crowbar, manhandled the gear rods out of reverse."

Must be some confusion in the historical account as to what he was doing or referencing, as this is impossible to do from the back deck of a Sherman, at least an M4A2E8. ;)

Regards,

Doug

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"On at least two occasions, under intense fire, Cpt. Virgo got on to the back of his tank and, with a crowbar, manhandled the gear rods out of reverse."

Must be some confusion in the historical account as to what he was doing or referencing, as this is impossible to do from the back deck of a Sherman, at least an M4A2E8. ;)

Regards,

Doug

I assume then it was a Churchill or Cromwell then as it would seem unlikely that the officers were unfamiliar with tanks.

WS/Corporal 7925951 Kenneth George VIRGO Recommended for Immediate MM

On Tue, 27th June 1944, 10 Troop were ordered to make a right flank attack on the village of Grainville-sur-Odon.

After a short while, the infantry with whom they were co-operating reported the centre of the village to be held by Panther Tanks, and withdrew. the tanks were ordered to advance through a plantation to the church in the centre of the town. When 100 yards away they met with heavy anti-tank fire and the Troop Sergeant's tank was knocked out, Corporal Virgo, knowing that his tank was jamming in reverse gear whenever he engaged it, advanced with his Troop Leader.

From very close range, one of his bogey wheels was shot out. The tanks met with heavy anti-tank and machine-gun fire from less than 100 yds range. It was necessary to change positions constantly to secure alternate covering fire positions in the plantation.

On at least two occasions, under intense fire, Cpt. Virgo got on to the back of his tank and, with a crowbar, manhandled the gear rods out of reverse. The crowbar was, on one occasion, knocked out of his hand by a bullet, but he picked it up and carried on. There were several snipers in the trees at the time and Corporal Virgo seeing one firing from close range whilst on the back of the tank, shot him with his pistol before getting back into the tank to continue firing on the centre of the town.

Later, in the same plantation, he went back to the Troop Sergeant's tank which was by this time burning fiercely. Again he dismounted, and with Ammunition from the burning tank bursting near him, and heavy enemy fire, he fearlessly did his best to protect Sgt. Simmons who was seriously wounded from the burning ammunition and enemy fire. He then mounted his tank again and brought it up to his Troop Leader and remained there firing less than 100 yards from the Church, until ordered to withdraw.

During the whole of the 30 minutes during which Corporal Virgo was in the plantation, he showed great courage, initiative and powers of leadership. This coolness in the face of enemy fire was magnificent.

Recommended by:

Lt-Col N.H. Everard 9 RTR 7 July 1944

Brigadier G.S. Knight 31 Tank Brigade 9 July 1944

Lt-Gen R. O'Connor 8 Corps 2 Aug 1944

Authorized by:

Field Marshall B.L. Montgomery 21 Army group 24 May 1944

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