Battlefront.com Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 And I will shed no tears if you insist on violating the Forum rules and we ban you for: 1. Being abusive 2. Promoting products from outside of Battlefront on our Forums That being said, there's plenty of games out there that look better than Combat Mission. Nobody makes better historically accurate tactical warfare games. The choice of eye candy over substance is always up to to the individual. BTW, if you want us gone so much... why are you still here? One would think that if some other company is SUCH a better product you wouldn't waste your precious time with anything else. Or are you just a man of talk and wee little action? Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejetset Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 LemoN - If you think Operation Star is a decent substitute for CMBN ... then I am rather flabbergasted. ... especially with their modeling of infantry and lack of a "we-go" and PBEM option (which I see you don't really use based on your signature) With Operation Star, your guys are just kind of "there" ... They move to the area you want them to ... but the terrain just seems to be nice, fluffy afterthoughts and really don't have any impact on the tactical situation. CM is much more in depth and thought-provoking. .... plus, the interface on Op-Star makes me feel like I'm retarded. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Thank god there IS an alternative now, a far superior actually. Namely Graviteam. Which is why I won't shed a tear when BFC dies. I'll be honest, I really never expected a reaction like this. When I wrote my reply I kept worrying that it was too harsh, but I really wanted to push you (in a positive way regardless of how it came out) to be more concrete in your suggestions. I would disagree with you about the alternative. I have seen that product touted here, looked at it and no offense, but I don't think it is anywhere near the same for better or worse. Best to you if you like it and it meets your needs better than CMBN, but it doesn't meet mine. All that being said, my hope to encourage you to be more constructive apparently sent you in the opposite direction...sorry to see that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhmorneau Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 About what you asked, Broadsword : >BTW, so much of this shared cultural nostalgia is American or Canadian -- >makes me wonder how our older overseas friends here found their way into >the hobby. With WWII still so much in local and recent memory, >overwhelming desire to forget the war in Germany (compared to the >constant romanticizing of it in US media and kids toys in the 1950s and >1960s), and these boardgames we grew up with probably not published or >sold as much overseas back then. Maybe miniatures were more often the >"entry drug" for Europeans in those days? Or something else? I'm European and I've always been fascinated by WWII and I'm sure I'm not the only one on the Old Continent. Don't forget that we kids saw every single US war movie on TV, again and again over the years I should add (but dubbed in French as far as I'm concerned ) About wargames : they were quiet easy to find in a specialized shop if you had a decent town around (I'm speaking about the early 80's here). If not, one could order it by mail from the capital. Problem is most of the wargames came directly from the US with botched up translations of the rules (and badly printed too!) More than once my friends and I would argue about an obscure yet capital paragraph which was so badly translated that it could be understood one way or the other All in all we figured the best way to make it work was to read it in English :cool:. This, to my mind, is the single most important difference between American wargamers and European wargamers : we Europeans* had to learn a foreign language to play the darn games !!! * : yeah, ok, now that I think about it, them Brits haven't had to sweat as much as we did, but let's say they are the exception that confirms the rule 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejetset Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I'll be honest, I really never expected a reaction like this. When I wrote my reply I kept worrying that it was too harsh, but I really wanted to push you (in a positive way regardless of how it came out) to be more concrete in your suggestions. I would disagree with you about the alternative. His comment was totally out of line. And I agree with you, there ARE no alternatives. But personally, I don't think there really needs to be an alternative. BF does a pretty good job for this niche market. And as long as we keep buying the games and continue to bitch and moan enough, the product line should keep evolving. In all honestly, it is the only computer game I play. (Although I have to admit squeezing off rounds in the new Red Orchestra game looks like A LOT of fun! .. but I don't have the rig for it! ) .... but I'd be willing to bet that even the team at BF has squeezed off a few rounds in Red Orchestra too in their spare time!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 .... but I'd be willing to bet that even the team at BF has squeezed off a few rounds in Red Orchestra too in their spare time!! Steve plays farmville, don't believe anything you hear to the contrary. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 C'mon, you guys are ignoring the best one: The Guns of Navarone set! Now THAT was a good Christmas. 3 levels, movable guns, elevator, and gobs of tanks to rush out of the gararge door. You know, I had NO idea those were Panthers. As well, for a long time I thought the MG42'ers were carrying crutches over their shoulders, so I thought they were medics. It didn't help them. OK, now you got me started...here are some doodads for the next module to aspire to: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejetset Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 OK, now you got me started...here are some doodads for the next module to aspire to: Now WOW ... that picture brings back some memories!! ... I actually HAD that playset when I was a kid. (well, at least a kid both in body and mind ) ... I never got the big "Gun Mountain" playset ... but I had this one. Later on these fortifications eventually would succumb to intense bb-gun fire. .. but the bailey-bridge collapsed after being stepped on by accident in a large battlefield that covered the greater part of the living room! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 BTW, if you want us gone so much... why are you still here? One would think that if some other company is SUCH a better product you wouldn't waste your precious time with anything else. Or are you just a man of talk and wee little action? Steve Oh, trust me, after taking a break from CM:BN for more than 6 months and coming back, seeing that there is still no patch to fix the game (but instead some yummy DLC that doesn't change much) and then trying to play some proper battles, just to see that the TacAI is too horrible to even make me believe I play a proper wargame, I realised that there's only one thing CM:BN is good for. Mindless QB's slaughtering AI once in a while. I'll leave you on your high horse of arrogance concerning your historical accuracy for the moment, that is indeed very high, the thing that isn't is the realism. Tell me, how can a game claim to be realistic if it has casualty rates that far exceed reality and things like rambo tank crews that put even Delta Force to shame and blind and deaf soldiers that will ignore enemy soldiers right in front of them? How can you claim to be "unrivalled" in realism if you don't even have hand to hand combat and instead have to watch soldiers how they shoot at eachother with SMG's at point blank range... just to miss most shots? How can you claim that your game is realistic when you have the possibly worst implementation of CQC I've ever seen in a game that claims to be a sim? Tanks that magically take damage to their subsystems? Entire battles being lost because there's a single broken chickenfarmer hidden somewhere in an objective, while an entire army passes by outside the window? Soldiers running into a house in a straight line one after eachother, no grenade throwing, no clearing, etc? I'll tell you one thing, your competitors may be lacking in some areas (mainly multiplayer) but they sure as hell are doing a LOT of things far better than you. Also, I don't give a toss about graphics and and eyecandy. Also, "wanting you gone" isn't correct, but seeing how arrogant and obnoxious of reality you are I'm not going to shed a tear when you're gone. That's a difference, as I still have hope you'll get off your high horse and actually realise that you neither have the products of ~2000, nor the competitors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Think it's slow with SPR on Omaha Beach. Just wait until CM OstFront is out and someone makes a "To The Volga" campaign. That will be slow. Slow? Ice melting in the middle of a blizzard is faster. :eek: Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger33 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I've played Operation Star some, and it's not really quite the same thing as what CMx2 offers. It wins in a few categories like battlefield scale, dynamic campaigns, strategic layer, graphics, and in some respects AI. Probably the coolest thing is how in CMBN you might see a road labeled "To Town X 500m" whereas in OpStar you can actually see the town 500m over there, and then go take it if the battle goes your way. You can also have your infantry squads spread out in a realistic manner, worry about supplies, and some other little cool things. Anyone calling it a "click-fest" has not given it a chance. The battles are usually even slower paced than CMBN due to the size of the maps. On the other hand, the level of detail and control isn't quite there, or isn't as apparent. The arty and air support system isn't half as good. The UI is just as wonky overall. There aren't specific objectives or detailed briefings, the tactical situation is always either take that zone or defend this zone. The maps are big but as not detailed. Then of course no multiplayer and if there is a mod community I have yet to find it. They are two games in the same ballpark, but not really the same thing. In my dream world, BFC and Graviteam would join together to make the ultimate WW2 wargame, but that will likely remain a dream. Disclaimer: Not meant to be an advertisement, just offering some discussion. No banhammer por favor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Oh, trust me, after taking a break from CM:BN for more than 6 months and coming back, seeing that there is still no patch to fix the game (but instead some yummy DLC that doesn't change much) and then trying to play some proper battles, just to see that the TacAI is too horrible to even make me believe I play a proper wargame, I realised that there's only one thing CM:BN is good for. Mindless QB's slaughtering AI once in a while. I'll leave you on your high horse of arrogance concerning your historical accuracy for the moment, that is indeed very high, the thing that isn't is the realism. Tell me, how can a game claim to be realistic if it has casualty rates that far exceed reality and things like rambo tank crews that put even Delta Force to shame and blind and deaf soldiers that will ignore enemy soldiers right in front of them? How can you claim to be "unrivalled" in realism if you don't even have hand to hand combat and instead have to watch soldiers how they shoot at eachother with SMG's at point blank range... just to miss most shots? How can you claim that your game is realistic when you have the possibly worst implementation of CQC I've ever seen in a game that claims to be a sim? Tanks that magically take damage to their subsystems? Entire battles being lost because there's a single broken chickenfarmer hidden somewhere in an objective, while an entire army passes by outside the window? Soldiers running into a house in a straight line one after eachother, no grenade throwing, no clearing, etc? I'll tell you one thing, your competitors may be lacking in some areas (mainly multiplayer) but they sure as hell are doing a LOT of things far better than you. Also, I don't give a toss about graphics and and eyecandy. Also, "wanting you gone" isn't correct, but seeing how arrogant and obnoxious of reality you are I'm not going to shed a tear when you're gone. That's a difference, as I still have hope you'll get off your high horse and actually realise that you neither have the products of ~2000, nor the competitors. Lemon I agree with a lot of your criticisms and have moaned about a few of them myself. I do feel though that you are being too aggressive and your valid points will be lost. Hoping for the demise of BFC is not what any true war gamer would want. Cool down and make your points in reasonable manner, because you do make some good points and have highlighted some areas that really need urgent work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 blah...blah...blah...I'll leave you on your high horse of arrogance concerning your historical accuracy for the moment....blah...blah...blah Not really trying to too hard to take the warning I gave you seriously, are you? Well, here. Let me help you out. You now can leave us in our arrogance forever because you are now free of us and you can enjoy all those other wargames you have lined up for yourself. Because you're no longer welcome here. Arrogance would be thinking our games are perfect. They're not. But we are the best out there. Based on the comments here by others who have played the same game you're trumpeting... I'm comfortable with our position. Especially because I've also played it. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Anyone calling it a "click-fest" has not given it a chance. The battles are usually even slower paced than CMBN due to the size of the maps. Indeed. When I played the Kharkov beta (they sent me a copy to evaluate. Read into that what you will) it was clear that the game was not intended to be, and in fact isn't, a click fest. However... On the other hand, the level of detail and control isn't quite there, or isn't as apparent. The arty and air support system isn't half as good. The UI is just as wonky overall. There aren't specific objectives or detailed briefings, the tactical situation is always either take that zone or defend this zone. The maps are big but as not detailed. Then of course no multiplayer and if there is a mod community I have yet to find it. No game is perfect. One person sees the flaws of Game X and is OK with them, another person sees the same flaws as a reason to never play it. Or as is often the case, there's no agreement on what a "flaw" is. 99% of the gamers out there hate all wargames in all of their guises. That doesn't make them wrong or right, it just makes them in the majority. From what I've seen of Combat Mission players talking about Graviteam's games, it's a mixed bag for them. At best. We don't see them as direct competition, rather as a complementary product. Once upon a time there used to be a dozen wargames to choose from. We're down to a couple. If anything there are too few games to compare with CM, not too many. They are two games in the same ballpark, but not really the same thing. In my dream world, BFC and Graviteam would join together to make the ultimate WW2 wargame, but that will likely remain a dream. Definitely a dream. Each game is based around a certain core set of principles and everything is based upon that. Those core principles dictate where limited development and technical capacity is invested. There are some things they do well simply because they aren't trying to do the same things we are, and vice versa. In a perfect world we would have a $50,000,000 budget like the big boys do and the ability to cater only to the highest end computers. Man... the thought of what we could do with that sort of money is staggering! But who would give us that sort of money when? Certainly not the people expecting $6 returned for every $1 spent Disclaimer: Not meant to be an advertisement, just offering some discussion. No banhammer por favor. We never clamp down on discussing other games when it's in context. Er... provided it's done constructively and without crossing the line into evangelism. Something LemoN decided didn't apply to him. Quite wrongly, of course. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Now WOW ... that picture brings back some memories!! ... I actually HAD that playset when I was a kid. (well, at least a kid both in body and mind ) ... I never got the big "Gun Mountain" playset ... but I had this one. I had neither, but wanted both And then there was that D-Day set a friend of mine had. By the time I had my own money to buy that sort of stuff I had moved onto something else. Man, what was that stuff called? Babylon Hill or somefink? Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Wow....the battleground play set brings bac memories. I had one of those and me and my brother had 3 of the navarone mountain sets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 When can we expect a list of improvements? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejetset Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I had neither, but wanted both And then there was that D-Day set a friend of mine had. By the time I had my own money to buy that sort of stuff I had moved onto something else. Man, what was that stuff called? Babylon Hill or somefink? Steve Well Steve, maybe it was a GOOD thing that you couldn't get those playsets as a kid! That might have been the subconscious "motivation / kick in the pants" that inspired you to build your own playset later in life!! Please don't follow that a@@hole LimoN's advice! You guys keep up the good work. In the mean time, everyone will keep bitching and moaning (including myself) about exactly WHAT you guys should be working on!! But as Patton said, "It's when soldiers STOP grumbling .... That's when commanders should start to worry!!" .....and it doesn't look that that's in any danger of happening on THESE boards any time soon!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 My war gaming started by staying up late on Tuesday nights to watch Combat with dad. I was in the first grade....I've had been waiting for CMBN ever since. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macisle Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Wow. I think LemoN just just did the forum equivalent of blowing himself up with his own panzerfaust--ala the video he posted recently ( http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=102621 ). I guess in moments of extreme duration--unexpected things happen. Not so unrealistic after all! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Lt Belenko, my real last name is Saunders. Guess who my favorite character was in Combat! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 When can we expect a list of improvements? It usually happens at the same the patch/module is released. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 OK, now you got me started...here are some doodads for the next module to aspire to: Oh, plastic terrain, you blokes had it easy! When I was a kid we only had green plastic army men. I had to get up one hour before I went to bed to clean my room in the wet paper bag we lived in in the middle of the road then I had to create me own sand by grinding down part of the curb with a used file before I could even start building my sand fortifications for my green plastic army men. Tell that to the gamers today and they won't believe you! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailApe Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Us Brits had Airfix. Amazing what battles can be fought with 1/72 figures in a cactus pot on the window ledge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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