Newb Terrain Recognition Problem

[Heliodorus]

After playing through the two tutorials (and being a CM1 veteran with a long hiatus from the game), I set up a quick battle, gave a bunch of orders, and then watched as my infantry ran 1,000 meters tangent to the objective I gave them that was 50 meters directly in front.

I've gathered based on the ridiculous reactions to all my move orders that the tree-lined hedges between the infantry and the move objective was impassable. Fine, I understand hedgerows, but the problem is that I can't tell the difference between what is impassable and what is navigable. I'm a little bit colorblind, though I doubt that's really the problem.

In CM1, you could check your LOSs and (IIRC) the game told you what type of terrain was what. How can I tell, short of an obvious break in a hedgerow, whether something is navigable? In the campaigns of the tutorial, you could navigate any hedgerow (with infantry) so I wasn't expecting this.

How can I tell what types of terrain are what, any cover values they have, and the transit movement penalty that might be incurred in crossing? I am searching the manual, but all I can find is icons of terrain amongst the editor pages, which isn't meeting my needs.

[stikkypixie]

After playing through the two tutorials (and being a CM1 veteran with a long hiatus from the game), I set up a quick battle, gave a bunch of orders, and then watched as my infantry ran 1,000 meters tangent to the objective I gave them that was 50 meters directly in front.

I've gathered based on the ridiculous reactions to all my move orders that the tree-lined hedges between the infantry and the move objective was impassable. Fine, I understand hedgerows, but the problem is that I can't tell the difference between what is impassable and what is navigable. I'm a little bit colorblind, though I doubt that's really the problem.

In CM1, you could check your LOSs and (IIRC) the game told you what type of terrain was what. How can I tell, short of an obvious break in a hedgerow, whether something is navigable? In the campaigns of the tutorial, you could navigate any hedgerow (with infantry) so I wasn't expecting this.

How can I tell what types of terrain are what, any cover values they have, and the transit movement penalty that might be incurred in crossing? I am searching the manual, but all I can find is icons of terrain amongst the editor pages, which isn't meeting my needs.

The new Combat Mission treats terrain more as what you see is what you get. So if there's no gap in the hedgerows, it's impassable. Same for forests, lots of trees and undergrowth means lots of cover and concealment. If you don't see any of that, then you're guys are going to be very exposed.

As for finding "cover" values, they are kept under the hood. They also make slightly less chance to show because each individual bullet is tracked. If the bullet/shell/whatever intersects the polygons that make up a tree the game determines whether it passes or not.

Bottom line is, you will have to gain a feel of the protection afforded by the terrain through experience and "common" sense. Good luck!

[Heliodorus]

I find that to be a negative selling point.

Peeling my green/yellow color-blind eyes through miles of hedgerow for a gap does not equate to fun gameplay in my book.

Unhappy. But thank you for the clarification.

[Cuirassier]

Hedgerows, I think, are passable. Small and big bocage is not by any units, though you can go through gaps. Hedgerows are the smallest of the three, and infantry units can look over them when crouched. Anything higher is bocage and blocks los much more completely.

[Heliodorus]

Well, I think I understand hedgerows now, at least, and anything larger than that is bocage/impassable without breach/natural breaks, from what you've told me (and much obliged for the help).

On the random map created for me, there were no gaps in a quite large proportion of the bocage. Is it common to have large areas of bocage without gaps? In the scenario I've switched to (Platoon Patrol), natural breaks are present someplace in every field.

I haven't checked much of the forum yet, but has the user community created scenarios outside of the June-to-August time frame of the original game?

[Erwin]

Yes, locating gaps in hedgerows is a huge PITA. As mentioned previously this is not supposed to be CM: LOCATING GAPS IN HEDGEROWS simulation. But, some folks here seem to enjoy that aspect of the game, so... Just consider it as a realistic penalization of your bad eyesight or something...

[c3k]

Scenario designers go through learning curves. Newer battles incorporate more breaks in the bocage. Some add dirt to show a worn path by these bocage gaps to make it easier to find them.

There is a player learning curve as well. It is difficult to tell hedges (passable) from low bocage (impassable). With experience, it gets easier.

As for green/yellow color blindness (of whatever degree), I'm sure you're far more of an expert than I on what that means. However, there is an outstanding mod community. I would think that the colors could be "swapped" for one which is easier for your vision.

Ken

[beatmasta]

Finding the holes in the bocage was a nuisance in the beginning but after quite lot lof playing finding them doesn't bother me anymore.

[hoolaman]

Yes the manual is lacking some really basic stuff.

If you own the full game (I think you can use the editor in the demo too), the best way to get your brain around it is to place blocks of each terrain in the editor and just look at what they look like. Most are quite distinctive, and I guess the theory is that the types of terrain should behave like they would in real life.

Bocage is impassible to any unit without a pre-placed gap or a specialist unit to make a gap.

PS I am colorblind too and that isn't the issue, bocage gaps are hard for everyone to find.

[sgtstinky]

It would make sense when you order movement and the "line" on the map shows the path from start to end that the areas that the unit cannot travel through turns red, this could also be done for the lower experiences level settings too leaving the higher experiences levels alone.

[Erwin]

Something like that, or putting a mud path just to make it more obvious where there are passable gaps.

I have been playing this game a LOT since it came out and I STILL have problems seeing all the gaps. Or, I locate a gap I can see thru' but discover too late that it's not a gap that an inf can actually pass thru.

A toggle to turn off undergrowth would be great so one can more easily locate features like gaps AND locate missing WIA guys that often disappear into bocage and cannot be located for buddy aid. (And of course saving WIA guys should also count in victory calculations as well since currently they do not.)

[Heliodorus]

It would make sense when you order movement and the "line" on the map shows the path from start to end that the areas that the unit cannot travel through turns red, this could also be done for the lower experiences level settings too leaving the higher experiences levels alone.

+1 (!)

So now I'm on to another quick battle. I've played a couple of those now, the first two with automatic troop allocation by the AI. Worked out well enough, though in one of them the main body of my force consisted of MMG and HMG teams (and ammo bearers). Only 3 squads of infantry, but probably 15 to 18 MGs (most heavy). Seemed odd. Any comments?

Now I'm on to another in which I'm buying my own troops (and letting the German be auto-selected) with an infantry-only constraint to both sides. Why can't I buy paratroopers in June 44? (And why are engineers referred to as 'pioneers'?).

And what is an "HQ Support" section for? Under several types of platoon leaders (or battalion) I'm seeing things like the HQ Support, and an XO team, and an "operations team".

I know what an XO is, but do they have any C2 functionality in the game?

What is an Operations Team for, and what is an HQ support section for.

How do people use mortars teams after they are out of ammo? And the ammo bearers?

I understand from reading the manual that basically higher tier, parent-type HQs won't affect subordinates that have their own integral HQ. Is that always, or 'only while the integral HQ section is alive'? I've ended up some times with HQs that had no attached subordinates to command, but if I double-clicked on them, the entire battalion was selected for movement. I'm a little lost as to the distinction between being the "HQ" of something like a battalion or platoon and being a viable C2 helper/morale helper. What's the point of taking risks with a company or battalion HQ section when it really has no subordinates that it can improve through command?

Should I be starting to notice distinctions in how units perform based on whether they have no commander (either dead or not in C2 range), versus a unit that can see the commander, versus a unit that can shout/talk to the commander?

[YankeeDog]

I've noted this before, but for those who weren't around for the original discussion, a easy way to quickly find the gaps in bocage:

Lower the game graphics level of detail (you can do this quickly by hitting SHIFT + [ repeatedly in-game).

Pop the camera up to a high level of view -- about "5" level usually works for me. At lower level of detail and high altitude viewpoint, Bocage is rendered as a 2-dimensional green wall, and gaps are very obvious.

Once you've noted the gap location, you can bring your level of detail back to normal by SHIFT + ].

[GhostRider3/3]

+1 (!)

So now I'm on to another quick battle. I've played a couple of those now, the first two with automatic troop allocation by the AI. Worked out well enough, though in one of them the main body of my force consisted of MMG and HMG teams (and ammo bearers). Only 3 squads of infantry, but probably 15 to 18 MGs (most heavy). Seemed odd. Any comments?

Now I'm on to another in which I'm buying my own troops (and letting the German be auto-selected) with an infantry-only constraint to both sides. Why can't I buy paratroopers in June 44? (And why are engineers referred to as 'pioneers'?).

And what is an "HQ Support" section for? Under several types of platoon leaders (or battalion) I'm seeing things like the HQ Support, and an XO team, and an "operations team".

I know what an XO is, but do they have any C2 functionality in the game?

What is an Operations Team for, and what is an HQ support section for.

How do people use mortars teams after they are out of ammo? And the ammo bearers?

I understand from reading the manual that basically higher tier, parent-type HQs won't affect subordinates that have their own integral HQ. Is that always, or 'only while the integral HQ section is alive'? I've ended up some times with HQs that had no attached subordinates to command, but if I double-clicked on them, the entire battalion was selected for movement. I'm a little lost as to the distinction between being the "HQ" of something like a battalion or platoon and being a viable C2 helper/morale helper. What's the point of taking risks with a company or battalion HQ section when it really has no subordinates that it can improve through command?

Should I be starting to notice distinctions in how units perform based on whether they have no commander (either dead or not in C2 range), versus a unit that can see the commander, versus a unit that can shout/talk to the commander?

In short... I believe the HQ Support is primarly the staff NCO's that support the XO and CO... In Company size and above. wether it be Battalion size, or Regimental. These would be the NCO's attached, primary function would have been logistics, support. I beleive...

[Heliodorus]

So since you mentioned nothing about any special game abilities, I assume that such teams are basically be used normally.

[GhostRider3/3]

So since you mentioned nothing about any special game abilities, I assume that such teams are basically be used normally.

If your talking about the HQ Support and XO's. yes. I dont think they have any other function in game but to add dressing to the game.

That being said however. You can create scenerios to target Command Units, and HQ Support, XO's and CO's would be the prime targets regardless if they have no "in game" function other then being part of Order of Battle.

Just like you can make missions to win by taking out all of the Armor... whatever?

That being said, for a Military game such as this, it is essential to have such units in game to bring the flavor of Company-battalion even regimental size units and be accurate.

Myself wether I am creating a scenerio or playing one... I generally think of my Support HQ as my "First Sergeant" or Highest ranking NCO... and if I lose that unit.. well that sucks, as you would have lost your highest ranking NCO. XO I generally keep away from the CO... as I generally will split my Company up.. having the XO assist the attack with the other Platoon leader.

Call it Roleplaying or whatever... but they do have functions in real life. Maybe they can give both units more of a Command fucntion. However the HQ Support if the unit is actually portraying the highest ranking NCO should be a high Moral boost for the troops, as he was generally the Big brother or Father to most.

[Broadsword56]

The first sgt's (i.e. support HQ) team I find very handy for leading patrols. He's got enough rank to make a good patrol leader, a jeep available, and has a radio so the patrol can even call in artillery if they spot anything shootable. Pair his team up with an infantry team from one of the platoons, and they can provide overwatch for each other.

[Holien]

Heliodorus,

Hedges / bocage / path finding is not great and even when you think you have a great route the AI can throw a curve ball and run a totally different way. There was one suggestion which if it could be done is for the AI to show you the plotted route it will use after you have moved off the unit you have just given a location to move to. This would immediately show if you had hit terrain issues and allow you to correct before your troops do something very silly and end up dead.

I just had a situation where I ordered a HQ unit to run across a shallow river and a pretty direct route straight forward. The HQ decided to run well out of its way and cross a bridge out in the open and end up where I did not want it to.

Other infantry had crossed river fine but this HQ unit must have hit something odd in AI to map it across the bridge and hence die!!! These little issues can build up to make you give up. Try to understand it and post here when you get problems as this is one large CMBN therapy group to help feed the eventual addiction...

Hope you enjoy your games despite these issues which I am sure over time will be corrected if they can be....

[GhostRider3/3]

Interesting... I actually have never had any pathfinding issues... except for when I make them... I generally observe the topography of the map looking for openings. I think there is a setting to limit your views... its been about a couple weeks since I played last.

the onlytimes I create issues for myself is when I try and traverse them in Heavy woods, not realizing that it is "impassible" and that they are actually obstructions. This has caused numerous casualties.. however I know what to look for now in the terrrain features. The only other time is in Heavy Urban areas, where they go out the wrong door.. and head out right into enemy fire. Other then that I myself have not had the issues the others are seeing. Im sure like Holien and others have said this will probably be addressed in CM Commonwealth.

[GerryCMBB]

You are full of useful tips. I also liked the one about placing the MG in the bocage.

Maybe we can have a Tip of the Day thread!?

Gerry

I've noted this before, but for those who weren't around for the original discussion, a easy way to quickly find the gaps in bocage:

Lower the game graphics level of detail (you can do this quickly by hitting SHIFT + [ repeatedly in-game).

Pop the camera up to a high level of view -- about "5" level usually works for me. At lower level of detail and high altitude viewpoint, Bocage is rendered as a 2-dimensional green wall, and gaps are very obvious.

Once you've noted the gap location, you can bring your level of detail back to normal by SHIFT + ].

[Lt Belenko]

I've noted this before, but for those who weren't around for the original discussion, a easy way to quickly find the gaps in bocage:

Lower the game graphics level of detail (you can do this quickly by hitting SHIFT + [ repeatedly in-game).

Pop the camera up to a high level of view -- about "5" level usually works for me. At lower level of detail and high altitude viewpoint, Bocage is rendered as a 2-dimensional green wall, and gaps are very obvious.

Once you've noted the gap location, you can bring your level of detail back to normal by SHIFT + ].

I've been doing this along. I figured it was a undisclosed feature. I keep my graphic settings on low just because of an old/slow computer machine.