Hedgehog Obsatcles

[weapon2010]

In the manual it says they are" impassable".Can you only go around them?Can they be blown up?

[rocketman]

Nope, you have to pass them.

[Mord]

I don't get that one. We can blow wire right? How come not hedgehogs?

Mord.

[noob]

If you want to blow hedgehogs, my advice would be to purse your lips.

[Statisoris]

:eek: Nasty bugger

[Wreck]

http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/Hedgehog

[LongLeftFlank]

If you want to blow hedgehogs, my advice would be to purse your lips.

LOL! [Fleetingly considers using above as new signature line but then decides against].

[Sergei]

I don't get that one. We can blow wire right? How come not hedgehogs?

Mord.

It's easier to clear a few rolls of barbed wire held up by a few wooden supports than a bunch of welded iron beams. I'm no combat engineer so I cannot tell how much explosives it would take to clear a tile full of them, but it's probably a fair amount. It might require more explosives than a single engineer squad carries with them, and the game's not built for that.

Besides, the hedgehog obstacle stands in for any kinds of roadblocks that vehicles cannot cross, including the more ad hoc types. Not all obstacles can be cleared in reasoble time frame.

[YankeeDog]

It's easier to clear a few rolls of barbed wire held up by a few wooden supports than a bunch of welded iron beams. I'm no combat engineer so I cannot tell how much explosives it would take to clear a tile full of them, but it's probably a fair amount. It might require more explosives than a single engineer squad carries with them, and the game's not built for that.

Besides, the hedgehog obstacle stands in for any kinds of roadblocks that vehicles cannot cross, including the more ad hoc types. Not all obstacles can be cleared in reasoble time frame.

'

Asked and answered by a real combat engineer here on the forums fairly recently; some searching should turn up the relevant thread.

Best of my recollection, answer was basically that it doesn't actually take a very large weight of explosives to blow apart a hedgehog-type obstacle, but it does take somewhat more careful setting of charges than, say, blowing a hole in a simple brick curtain wall or something like that.

My own layman's impression is that blowing apart a few pieces of welded I-beam would not be significantly more complicated than blowing a hole in bocage that a vehicle could pass through. So presumably, it's something that combat engineers could handle in CM timeframes, especially since they presumably wouldn't blow apart every single hedgehog, but rather just enough to create a gap in the barrier large enough for a tank to squeeze through.

Also worth noting that U.S. combat engineers in the first waves of the landings, working with little more than satchel charges and det. cord, blew up a whole bunch of hedgehogs and similar obstacles such as Belgian gates on the beaches of Omaha and Utah in the first few hours of the landings, in order to make safe unloading paths for the landing craft.

[Rake]

Just tried to start my first ever game vs a human player. The scenario, Buying the Farm, has wire, making it unplayable as designed using v1.10 due to the red button crash.

My opponent sent me a modified file replacing all the wire with hedgehogs. Not having encountered these fortifications previously, I perused the Wiki looking for a way to defeat these things.

I found my answer on Wiki (a solid negative) and should have left it at that, redone my setup and sent the turn along. But, noooooo! I had to search the forum, too... leading me to this gem of a thread :eek:

If you want to blow hedgehogs, my advice would be to purse your lips.

noob... noob... noob...

I dare not think how one would even know this...

Nope, you have to pass them.

Oww, oww, oww, oww, oowwwwwww!

:eek: Nasty bugger

+1,000,000,000... Thank you, Statis, for some fresh air above what is obviously a leak in the cesspool

Oh, and BTW, count me among those who believe one should be able to blow up hedgehog defenses

[Agua]

Maybe it was a map quirk, but there was a road with hedgehogs about two thirds of the way towards the back of the map in a Montebourg scenario - bumper cars - and an m8 armored car got through them. Playing realtime, I'd set a movement command with no LOS to the hedgehogs at the time the order was issued, got off screwing with some other disaster, came back and there's these damned hedgehogs, bocage on both sides of the road, m8s on the clear side, and accompanying stewarts screwing around on the blocked side of the hedgehogs. Of course I wasted a good bit of time trying to make the stuarts match the feat. Didn't happen.

[womble]

Maybe it was a map quirk, but there was a road with hedgehogs about two thirds of the way towards the back of the map in a Montebourg scenario - bumper cars -

That's a Courage and Fortitude one, I believe, or it's not Bumper Cars (or Montebourg has a scenario with the same name that has hedgehog roadblocks in it!)

...and an m8 armored car got through them...

I snuck an m8 past one set of roadblocks, but the landmines got him and he blocked the gap for any following vehicles.

...stewarts screwing around on the blocked side of the hedgehogs. Of course I wasted a good bit of time trying to make the stuarts match the feat. Didn't happen.

On the same map, I had Stuarts and scout cars shimmy through the gap in wooden fences (the kind that map builders use to close off a broader gap in Bocage) without flattening the fence. Not nearly as tactically useful...

[Agua]

That's a Courage and Fortitude one, I believe, or it's not Bumper Cars (or Montebourg has a scenario with the same name that has hedgehog roadblocks in it!)

You're right. Must have blocked that name out of my memory.

On the same map, I had Stuarts and scout cars shimmy through the gap in wooden fences (the kind that map builders use to close off a broader gap in Bocage) without flattening the fence. Not nearly as tactically useful...

hehehh.

[Rocky Balboa]

Currently hedgehogs can't be blown with a demo charges and IMO this blows. These hedgehogs were not indestructible and could absolutely be removed with a modest amount of HE.

If a demo charge can breach a tank wide hole in bocage (which I seriously doubt could be done in RL with a single charge) then you should also be able to remove hedgehogs with them.

I think both wire and hedgehogs should be breached with either demo charges or large caliber HE(105mm +). I would also submit that a large caliber HE shell that lands on top of a hedgerow would also have the effect of opening an infantry size hole in the hedge.

Are we saying that large caliber HE can destroy concrete and masonry buildings but can't blow these metal hedgehogs off a road or knock a hole in a hedge?

[Amizaur]

'

Best of my recollection, answer was basically that it doesn't actually take a very large weight of explosives to blow apart a hedgehog-type obstacle, but it does take somewhat more careful setting of charges than, say, blowing a hole in a simple brick curtain wall or something like that.

My own layman's impression is that blowing apart a few pieces of welded I-beam would not be significantly more complicated than blowing a hole in bocage that a vehicle could pass through.

The "somewhat carefull settinf of charges" means that blowing such obstacle - if it's firmly attached to something solid - would require few things.

First, it would require combat engineers that really do understand how the explosives works or were trained to clear hedgehog obstacles. I'm not sure, maybe this requirement is just true by default - maybe an average combat engineer understands explosives well and is specifically trained to blow such things.

But they would also need much more TIME to carefully place those explosives (while being exposed and at danger of provoking a mortar fire or something like that, while spending their time at hedgehog field).

Also they should have available proper kind of explosives that they CAN place properly. Or they would have to spend there even more time, trying to be creative with what they have, or trying to work it out by an overkill .

OK, it should be possible - if there is really no other way - but it should take several times as long as clearing other types of obstacle, and at least a "veteran" - or highly motivated - combat engineer team .

I'm personally ok with the fact, that it can't be cleared in game . I'm more bothered by the fact, that a an ordinary tall hedge is absolutely impassable for a whole squad of highly-motivated infantry. They should be able to make a pass spending some time, even if it took something like 10-20 minutes. In worst case, they could make a pass using automated weapons. It was possible in "Predator" to clear quite a few joungle tiles using the minigun .

So it should be possible to make a small pass in a tall hedge using an MG .

[YankeeDog]

The "somewhat carefull settinf of charges" means that blowing such obstacle - if it's firmly attached to something solid - would require few things.

First, it would require combat engineers that really do understand how the explosives works or were trained to clear hedgehog obstacles. I'm not sure, maybe this requirement is just true by default - maybe an average combat engineer understands explosives well and is specifically trained to blow such things.

Yes; the typical combat engineer/pioneer is trained to do this. Clearing of obstacles of a wide variety of types with explosives is a basic part of combat engineer training; has been since medieval times. Steel barriers, stone walls, log blockades, etc. WWII Engineer training manuals are widely available, and you'll find whole sections teaching how to how to blow up stuff in them.

But they would also need much more TIME to carefully place those explosives (while being exposed and at danger of provoking a mortar fire or something like that, while spending their time at hedgehog field).

As I have noted previously, the time and effort requirements for clearing a hedgehog field with explosives are not really any worse than for blowing a hole in bocage large enough to be useable by vehicles, or blowing a hole through a thick stone wall a vehicle can pass through, both of which engineers can do in less than 30 seconds in CMBN.

Also they should have available proper kind of explosives that they CAN place properly. Or they would have to spend there even more time, trying to be creative with what they have, or trying to work it out by an overkill .

The explosives required to demolish a hedgehog are part of a basic engineer's demo kit -- all you really need is plastique and det cord and whatever you're going to use as a fuse/detonator. Duck tape to hold the charge to the steel is a bonus, but not really necessary -- you can just use the det cord to tie the charge to the steel if you need to. It's even easier if you have cutting charges; many man-portable engineer kits include pre-made cutting charges as well. Given a minute or two, an engineer can also make a crude cutting charge with a standard plastique block and a knife -- this was (and is) also part of combat engineer training.

OK, it should be possible - if there is really no other way - but it should take several times as long as clearing other types of obstacle, and at least a "veteran" - or highly motivated - combat engineer team .

Again, I don't agree. Blowing apart a few pieces of steel is no harder than blowing a large hole through a 1-2m thick earthen embankment reinforced with roots and stones. In fact, in many ways, blowing a hole through the embankment is harder -- earth absorbs explosive force very well, so you usually have to dig the charge into the bank to move much earth unless you want to just overkill it with several kg of explosives (which brings in other dangers). If we can do one, we should be able to do the other.

But in general, I'm in favor of having ALL engineering tasks take longer in the game. IMHO, 30 Seconds is way too quick to blow a vehicle-size hole in bocage. But in terms of *relative* time and effort, I don't think clearing a path through an 8m thick belt of hedgehogs should take significantly longer, or be significantly harder, than blowing bocage or clearing a path through an 8m thick minefield.

A great example of all this is the records of clearing of the obstacles on Utah beach and other beaches, which included teller mines on poles, Belgian gates, and hedgehogs. Especially on Utah, much of obstacle clearing, and especially the clearing first lanes through the obstacles for landing craft, was done by hand with nothing more than demo charges, det cord, and a few hand tools. The assault engineers were able to do the job quite quickly indeed.

[gunnersman]

Womble was so gracious to give the tune about hedgehogs in my own search for this question here

"The Hedgehog song"

Spreading the love. ;-)

Enjoy!

[Amizaur]

Yes; the typical combat engineer/pioneer is trained to do this. Clearing of obstacles of a wide variety of types with explosives is a basic part of combat engineer training; Steel barriers, stone walls, log blockades, etc.

(...)

The explosives required to demolish a hedgehog are part of a basic engineer's demo kit

OK, I feel convinced . You are right, a specialised team of combat engineers should be, by definition, trained how to clear such things and be equipped with all needed stuff, including det cords and plastic explosives that can be placed precisely. When I was thinking about it, I probably have imagined just some ordinary soldiers equipped with some explosives and a general knowledge how to use them .

But in general, I'm in favor of having ALL engineering tasks take longer in the game. IMHO, 30 Seconds is way too quick to blow a vehicle-size hole in bocage. But in terms of *relative* time and effort, I don't think clearing a path through an 8m thick belt of hedgehogs should take significantly longer, or be significantly harder, than blowing bocage or clearing a path through an 8m thick minefield.

If you'd tried to achieve all those tasks by precisely using optimal amonut of explosives, then I agree all of them would take about the same time. But in case of bocage or a minefield, you could probably use an "overkill" method with good results, placing larger amount of explosives less carefully. That method would not work against hedgehogs.

But in general, I agree .

[womble]

Combat engineering operations are very loosely modelled in the game. Your pioneers have 4 "Bangs" that can do whatever function you happen to require. Clearing wire ought to need a different charge to clearing the vegetation off the top of a bocage berm (which is what happens: the berm remains for your tank to teeter-totter over...) which is a different charge again to a mouseholing charge. And there are things a pioneer team ought to be able to do that aren't modelled in game. It's inherently complicated, and there will always be boundaries to the modelling. Maybe they'll move, maybe they won't. It'll still be an approximation, and a rough one.

[chas_in_mlb]

If you want to blow hedgehogs, my advice would be to purse your lips.

That just gave me the best laugh I've had in days.

[Michael Emrys]

You don't need plastic explosives really. As YD indicated, all you need is a block or two of TNT and some tape to hold it on place plus a detonator. I used to have a manual for combat engineers that showed all the things they were expected to do and there was even an illustrated instruction for this. Cutting steel beams, as are found in bridges for instance, is a perfectly standard operation.

Michael