GSX

Definitely armour, the fidelity of 1-1 infantry modelling is too far away from real life yet to accurately depict either infantry formations or IA drills. As I understand it 1-1 infantry is still abstracted. Armour in CM-2 has come along in leaps and bounds and in my opinion is the truly shining factor in CM games.

While I agree with almost all of your post I would add that the phrase rush job doesn't sit well as this game has been in development for at least 3 years. Other fish to fry maybe, but surely not a rush job.

I thought there was o friendly fire from small arms or target light? Has this changed from CMSF?

Yes, I think you may be right. Remember, I'm not arguing that Panthers shouldn't kill at these ranges I'm simply reporting what I'm seeing in my games. Also, no one should be closing with the enemy in a Panther unless they really have to the key to using them is their range. That said, I always believed that the point of the Demo was to sell the game, not to ask me to buy the game first and tell me I will see it's OK then. I'm buying it anyway........ So no worries in that department.

I thinks its honestly fair to say that this IS NOT working as there is no bracketing. I have just dont the thing again as German and my Panthers never missed the target, either buttoned or unbuttoned. Same thing happened. Sherman crests rise, Panther turns, shoots and hits 1st time. M10 runs right to left, panther (buttoned) turns about 40 degrees, shoots, hits 1st time. Range, between 750 and 850 meters. I reiterate for the last time, there is no bracketing, its CMSF robot shooting Im seeing. It simply means that if playing the AI all you need to do is wait. Try this, play Germans in WEGO in this scenario. Hide all of your forces except the spotter team. When the game starts Fast Forward until the Panthers arrive. Move only 1 Panther up to the hill where the spotter is but keep it close to the trees and slightly back, not hull down though. Simply wait for Allied Armour to start popping up. I have yet to see a 1st shot miss. Last time Panther hit at 824 Meters 1st shot.

once again, maybe Im not making myself clear or explaining what Im seeing too well. I dont have a particular problem with spotting something that is head on or within the frontal hemisphere, of course I agree that vehicles should be able to spot each other at those ranges. Armour is a big thing after all. What Im seeing though is instant spotting, then turning to engage AND hitting 1st time, every time. Ive never fired or crewed a ww2 Panther but I would be very much astounded if a real life Panther could do this every time. So to be clear. Im not arguing about the accuracy of a Panther to hit a stationery spotted target at 800 meters. I am commenting about the results I see when a Panther (or M-10) can instantly spot a vehicle over 800 meters, and hit it first time, every time. And worse still, even when the target is moving, or has appeared up to 90 degrees from the front. As has been mentioned earlier, it just feels robotic and CMSF like. Anyone can play this Hotseat and see it for themselves I suppose.

Again, let me start by saying I fully appreciate that Panthers can kill a Sherman at over 800 meters and I have absolutely no gripe about it. But heres my experience so far. Playing as Germans on 'Closing the Gap' Panthers sit on top of the German starting hill. Sherman hoves into view. Panther immediately engages and hits first time. It doesnt matter if the Panther is directly facing the Sherman or not. If it isnt, the Panther immediately slews through up to 90 degrees and fires a 1st Shot hit (in 90% of the engagements it also kills). I have now played from the German side about 8 times and every time is the same, with exceptions below. As long as the Panther can see the middle of an enemy vehicle it hits it first time. The exception to this seems to be hull down vehicles. In this case the Panther seems to miss low at about the point where the centre of the Sherman is. It will do this a couple of times and then finally hit. Now, on the other hand, if I play the US side and hunt my M-10 into the trees they also get 1st shot hits at over 800 meters. Although they arent killing the Panthers (and I wouldnt really expect them to) but easily kill the Marders. My conclusion is that something is wrong with the gunnery itself. Its either dialled up too far for crew experience or something else is affecting it. The range alone is cause for a raised eyebrow (only in the respect of immediate sighting and firing not the ability of the gun to kill), but when coupled with a moving target which is offset by a lot of degrees then it causes both my eyebrows to raise. Its not a game breaker or anything but it just feels wrong.

Children be calm. The BF website says in a few days. A few days is less than a week but more than a couple of days so a few days is more than 2 but less than 7. So it will be here soon........

Try moving an AT gun, strongest man in the world as he proceeds to not only carry the gun on his own but throw it around all over the place!

I have already noted this effect too. I've consistently had Panthers get a first shot hit over 800 meters in unusual circumstances. One particular one was straight from CMSF as the Panther turned through about 50 degrees to get a 1st shot hit on a moving Sherman. Another Panther took 2 hits almost simultaneously and returned fire within 5 seconds for another 1 shot kill. Sherman and M10 accuracy has been the same but they aren't killing the Panthers but have no trouble with the Marders. This shows me that there seems to be no trouble with the armour representation. So I would echo the original poster in his point and add mine. Armour just seems too accurate in specific circumstances and seems to recover, or shrug off hits far too quickly.

While I fully appreciate that its not in the game for the excellent reasons you state, infantry did ride on tanks in Western Europe, even into battle. I cant find a specific quote right now (at work) but the Irish Guards certainly started out Operation Market Garden riding on their tanks and went into combat on them, several being killed in the process. So it was done at times. However, the game of CM doesnt specifically need them in my opinion.

I appreciate this and agree that these guns can kill at these ranges. What I do find strange is the ability of the Panthers to be buttoned up but spot a target moving over 800 meters away from almost 90 degrees, immediately turn, fire 1 shot and hit the fast moving target. Once maybe, but to do it consistently just feels wrong and very CMSF like.

Firstly, let me congratulate BF for a very enjoyable game so far. The presentation of CMBN is excellent and has moved the engine further on from CMSF while still retaining the feel of that game. Im liking the graphics and as promised the look of Normandy has been great. I also really like the way the UI looks and has progressed from CMA. While enjoying the Demo scenarios I have noticed a couple of things: 1.1. I had a Sherman engaged by a half squad of Germans who threw a total of 2 grenades at it. The first grenade caused them to be immobilised. The second to bail out, killing the Tank. I havent tried to re-create this again yet but hopefully will over the coming weekend. My question about this is simple. Either grenades are possibly being overmodelled or, as with CMx1 games, throwing a grenade is being used as an abstract for an infantryman close assualting. This may have worked in CMx1, but does not work in 1-1. I dont think 2 'Stick Grenades' should cause a Sherman to be destroyed. 1.2 Another weird thing is that the Sherman crew Bailed and proceeded to kill 3 out of the 5 German soldiers to their front and take the other 2 prisoner (loosing all but 1 crewman in the fire-fight). They all had pistols and the Germans had 4 x Rifle and 1 x SMG. Shouldnt the bailed out crew take some sort of 'hit' for having just bailed out of a destroyed tank? 2. Playing the closing the gap scenario (from both sides), seems to keep getting 1st shot hits at fairly long ranges, even on moving vehicles. Both US and German vehicles seem to get 1st shot hits at over 800m. I fully realise that for the vehicles involved that they should be able to kill an enemy at that range (possibly with the exception of killing the Panthers from the front) but the vehicles seem to be targetting like CMSF MBTs. I am fully aware that there are many variables in tank gunnery but I would have thought that in most instances the 1st shot wouldnt hit at these ranges, especially on a moving target. However, I stand to be corrected. As I said, so far though, Im really enjoying the game and more than looking forward to the full version when it arrives. Cheers and well done to all involved.

Yes, I have played cmsf from the start and actually do realise this. After ten years of listening to the same voices I was expecting some new ones. It's not exactly game breaking. I take it then that these will be he final sounds.

The US voices were the same as the ones in CMBO though. After 10 years of 'Take a look at that' it does get a wee bit tiresome. SO, are these the sounds that will be in game?

I don't think there has ever been free trade, possibly not since the days of the empire! Also, some UK banks also charge for an exchange rate transaction I think.

I'd go along with that. Apparently in Normandy there was a real clamour for the few Kangaroos available to the Brits/Canadians due to the fact that they were much less vulnerable than the Allied H/T. Guess we will have to wait for the next Module for that capability (if the RAM Kangaroo is in).

Lol, probably within about 15 minutes someone will arrive complaining that they cant download the game, or that its going to take 27 hours. Then possibly there will be guys asking where their hard-goods are as they cant download the game. Of course, it all depends on what YOU view as a complaint and someone else views as a legitimate problem in the game. For instance I could say 'I hate this game, it sucks because there's no SS'. Wouldn't be legitimate in my eyes as I already know that there's no SS and Id just be whining. If however I said, 'Ive noticed that Panzerschreks always get a first shot kill from 350 meters', that would be pointing out a design flaw and not necessarily a complaint. What Im more interested in is the reaction to the legitimate rather than the whining. Cheers

I was thinking that too. What if you had to attack over the only bridge to have a chance of winning the scenario and your opponent dropped the bridge? I suppose it would come down to bad scenario design.

Surely BF can get back on track with the original module concept of 6 months? If not, then at the historical rate of modules we may never see a full Eastern Front game in our lifetime? Whatever happened to a Year a Game and Module every 6 months????

As far as I'm awa there were no significant changes to US or Brit force structure between Aug and Sep except the possibility of a very few mi or vehicle changes. Certainly nothing major or significant.

This has already been discussed at some length in the Brits thread. My take on it is this: They will need to leave the Brit Airborne out of the CW Module. This means they can provide them and new terrain, buildings and flavour objects. They can then either give the SS away again in this module, or provide new SS models. As for other Brit armour, perhaps they can design the campaign with just airborne forces. This approach can be seen already in CMBN and makes sense to me, as if they don't add anything significant anyone can build their own MG (Market Garden) scenarios and campaigns. In summary; save Brit Airborne, new buildings etc for MG. Give away SS formations and design it so that it does not need any other Modules to play.

Wow, I will probably be dead by the last one, that's about 30 years of gaming! Have the BF team made provision for their offspring to finish the quest!

Does this mean that 'New' sounds have been sourced for everything or will I be hearing, yet again "take a look at that" from my US infantry every 5 seconds? One of the disappointing things about CMSF was having the US stock CMBO voices all over again. The Brit module took the right approach though.

I agree. I'm just going on what was said about the Module system. That using one module doesn't require you to have another one. Therefore the MG module shouldnt need anything that is in Module 1 (CW) to run it. But, seeing as there have to be Brit Airborne in it, it would be a smart and sensible move to leave these out of the CW module. However, its BFs game and system and they can change it to whatever they fancy and so perhaps a pre-requisite for MG would be CW. No biggie though as Im sure everyone will get every Module.