c3k

Some interesting topics have been started about how information moves through the C2 chain both vertically (up & down the chain of command) and horizontally (directly from one team to another team).  As a result I did some experimenting with C2 & information sharing.  Below are the results and several chronological screen shots from the experiment.  If anyone can offer a correction or additional information please do. 
 
Additional useful information on the topic:
Game manual 3.01 page 62 Command & Control.
http://community.battlefront.com/topic/113787-can-somebody-answer-some-questions-on-information-sharing/
 
The distance information can be shared vertically (chain of command).
Voice C2: Up to six action spots, approximately 48 meters.
Close Visual (eyeball) C2: Up to 12 action spots, approximately 96 meters.
Distant Visual C2: As far as the unit’s line of sight.  (In the experiment I had units sharing information vertically with Distant Visual at 40 action spots, approximately 480 meters before I stopped.)
Radio C2: Entire map.  (In the WWII titles If a unit is moving on foot they will drop out of radio C2 during the movement)
 
The distance information can be shared horizontally (directly between teams).
Up to four action spots, approximately 32 meters. (Sometimes a team had to move to within 3 action spots)
 
Can information be shared horizontally between teams from different battalions?
Yes
 
Can information be shared between to different HQs that do not have a common higher HQ?
Vertically: No (With no common higher HQ there is no bridge for the information to pass over) 
Horizontally: Yes
 
I used two different US battalions on a custom made map for the experiment.  The 4th US Tank Battalion on the west (left) side of the map and the 1st US Infantry Battalion on the east (right) side.  A high ridgeline divided the two battalions.  At the beginning of the experiment no units of the 4th Battalion were in C2 with units of the 1st Battalion.  An immobilized German Marder II was used as the OpFor unit to be spotted and reported.  

 
The scouts move out to locate the German Marder II.

 
At 03:58:43 the scouts obtain a sound contact for the Marder II but they are out of C2.  

 
1st Platoon is selected but shows no icon for the Marder II.

 
Additional to follow.

There are a lot of good tips here. I follow a couple of different techniques, depending on whether or not I know/suspect the building is occupied or not.
 
First, NEVER use ASSAULT when approaching/entering a building. ASSAULT moves each team of a squad, one at a time, to the waypoint, and then to the next waypoint. If I have a 3-team squad, that's a whole lot of exposure time for the first team.
 
Instead, split off an ASSAULT TEAM. (It's in the Admin command tab.) They're the guys with the grenades and CQB weapons. 
 
If I know/suspect the building is occupied, I'll nail it with every HE weapon I can, for at least one turn. That will pin and suppress the occupants. If nothing else, the Assault Team and Covering Team will TARGET the building. (Note: if you split a squad into teams, but don't give them movement orders, they'll recombine. To prevent this, give a "false" movement order. QUICK (or anything else) with a PAUSE greater than 1 minute.) 
 
When it's time to assault, I lift the TARGET commands and use TARGET LIGHT. (TARGET uses HE, which causes friendly casualties). I make sure no heavy machineguns  use TARGET LIGHT. They will not cause friendly casualties, but they will cause suppression/pins. Not good when you're about to kick down a door. Use TARGET BRIEFLY, say, 30 seconds. Have your assault team PAUSE for 30 seconds. (Or just 15 if they need ~20 seconds or more to get adjacent to building.) The goal is to have the least delay between the lifting of TARGET orders and your assault team getting to the building.
 
Have the assault team get next to the building. If there are enemy units/exposure down the street, smoke the LOS that way so your assault team is not vulnerable to aimed fire when stacked at the target building.
 
If the wall they're on has windows, have them TARGET BRIEF into the room. Give them a 15 second PAUSE, then QUICK into the room. It is very important to add a 360 degree covered arc at the end of the QUICK order, encompassing the room plus about 5m. You don't want your guys orienting to the original target spot they had when stacked outside and looking inside. (You could give TARGET BRIEF twice, and then you'd give a 30 second PAUSE. It depends how many grenades you want to use and how much spray and pray you think is appropriate.)
 
The overwatch element(s) should engage any enemy which try to flee or shift positions within the building. Or, give them a PAUSE (to coincide with their TARGET BRIEF command) and shift positions with a move order, and from that new location use TARGET (or LIGHT, or BRIEF) to suppress other locations.
 
If your assault team stacks next to windowless wall, that's even better. Use a breach or demo charge and BLAST your way in. That'll pin/suppress most of the enemy. Same rule: 360 target arc at the endpoint with a 5m or so circle beyond the confines.
 
Now, if you want to get fancy, time a second element to charge in AFTER the first one dominates the room. Have the second element FACE a specific direction, like the room next door. (Check for interior windows and doors.)
 
 
If you don't know/suspect an enemy is there, a much more abbreviated approach would be appropriate. Less booms, more small caliber (TARGET LIGHT), more observation time from a distance. Don't try to enter (after the prep fire); just get next to it and look in. The walls will protect your guys from surprises inside. (Of course, they may get machinegunned by enemy units in a different building, but that's situational dependent.)
 
You WILL lose men in MOUT. No competent enemy will let anything else happen. Since there interior of buildings are abstracted, you should expect enemy to survive your cover fire/grenading when you enter. So, even if you follow the procedures I've written, men will die. This just minimizes it. Hopefully.
 
The timing is something you'll learn with more play. If you have a "bad" entry, save the game and replay your orders phase until you find a timing which works. That kind of repetition is the best way to learn.
 
YMMV.
 
Ken

There are a lot of good tips here. I follow a couple of different techniques, depending on whether or not I know/suspect the building is occupied or not.
 
First, NEVER use ASSAULT when approaching/entering a building. ASSAULT moves each team of a squad, one at a time, to the waypoint, and then to the next waypoint. If I have a 3-team squad, that's a whole lot of exposure time for the first team.
 
Instead, split off an ASSAULT TEAM. (It's in the Admin command tab.) They're the guys with the grenades and CQB weapons. 
 
If I know/suspect the building is occupied, I'll nail it with every HE weapon I can, for at least one turn. That will pin and suppress the occupants. If nothing else, the Assault Team and Covering Team will TARGET the building. (Note: if you split a squad into teams, but don't give them movement orders, they'll recombine. To prevent this, give a "false" movement order. QUICK (or anything else) with a PAUSE greater than 1 minute.) 
 
When it's time to assault, I lift the TARGET commands and use TARGET LIGHT. (TARGET uses HE, which causes friendly casualties). I make sure no heavy machineguns  use TARGET LIGHT. They will not cause friendly casualties, but they will cause suppression/pins. Not good when you're about to kick down a door. Use TARGET BRIEFLY, say, 30 seconds. Have your assault team PAUSE for 30 seconds. (Or just 15 if they need ~20 seconds or more to get adjacent to building.) The goal is to have the least delay between the lifting of TARGET orders and your assault team getting to the building.
 
Have the assault team get next to the building. If there are enemy units/exposure down the street, smoke the LOS that way so your assault team is not vulnerable to aimed fire when stacked at the target building.
 
If the wall they're on has windows, have them TARGET BRIEF into the room. Give them a 15 second PAUSE, then QUICK into the room. It is very important to add a 360 degree covered arc at the end of the QUICK order, encompassing the room plus about 5m. You don't want your guys orienting to the original target spot they had when stacked outside and looking inside. (You could give TARGET BRIEF twice, and then you'd give a 30 second PAUSE. It depends how many grenades you want to use and how much spray and pray you think is appropriate.)
 
The overwatch element(s) should engage any enemy which try to flee or shift positions within the building. Or, give them a PAUSE (to coincide with their TARGET BRIEF command) and shift positions with a move order, and from that new location use TARGET (or LIGHT, or BRIEF) to suppress other locations.
 
If your assault team stacks next to windowless wall, that's even better. Use a breach or demo charge and BLAST your way in. That'll pin/suppress most of the enemy. Same rule: 360 target arc at the endpoint with a 5m or so circle beyond the confines.
 
Now, if you want to get fancy, time a second element to charge in AFTER the first one dominates the room. Have the second element FACE a specific direction, like the room next door. (Check for interior windows and doors.)
 
 
If you don't know/suspect an enemy is there, a much more abbreviated approach would be appropriate. Less booms, more small caliber (TARGET LIGHT), more observation time from a distance. Don't try to enter (after the prep fire); just get next to it and look in. The walls will protect your guys from surprises inside. (Of course, they may get machinegunned by enemy units in a different building, but that's situational dependent.)
 
You WILL lose men in MOUT. No competent enemy will let anything else happen. Since there interior of buildings are abstracted, you should expect enemy to survive your cover fire/grenading when you enter. So, even if you follow the procedures I've written, men will die. This just minimizes it. Hopefully.
 
The timing is something you'll learn with more play. If you have a "bad" entry, save the game and replay your orders phase until you find a timing which works. That kind of repetition is the best way to learn.
 
YMMV.
 
Ken

Yes, I, too, will turtle when I think my losses will...
 
Sorry. I couldn't keep typing that without laughing and losing my focus. Turtle because of losses? Gadzooks! Your men WANT to die for you! They only showed up for this battle so they could prove their mettle! Don't deny them the opportunity.
 
Make some scouts. Hell, designate an entire platoon as a scout platoon. Make 'em expendable. (Don't tell them that. Tell them you've picked them, not because you don't give a toss if any survive, but because you've been impressed by their skills and fortitude. Tell 'em no one else could do what you're about to ask of them.)
 
Anyway, start small, with HUNT. Move a scout team or two up and about. Have one stop in overwatch while the other continues. Keep moving some scouts forward. Keep the ones that survived stationary. If the enemy saw them, the hard spot will go to "?" status after they've been still. On the flip side, the stationary ones will begin to spot more/better.
 
Pick the guys with binos.
 
This is the "slice the pie" approach, or, if you'd prefer, "the camel's nose under the tent", or, "I just want you to touch it once". Whichever you like.
 
Pry open the Lines of Slght and determine which zones are empty of the enemy. Move up more guns and men and dominate the empty space. If the enemy enters, he dies.
 
How will that help you here? Well, the setup zones seem to be minor depressions. Move several scouts up to the top and look around. He's got 88's? Smoke 'em. Once they're blinded, move up some HE tossers and area target the guns. Tanks? Well, you'll need freedom of maneuver, so you'll need to find the guns first.
 
Ken

LOL, Thewood1 seems to be giving you good advice.
 
Were =I= the Piat gunner, going into combat, I'd figure out how to carry extra!  
 
(In similar manner, columns of infantry were frequently given extra mortar shells to carry. Once they got near the jumping off point, they'd dump 'em near the mortar emplacement. Men can carry a LOT of ammo. As I said, anything extra will get ditched. Ammo and weapons would be retained to the end.)
 
Infantry carry stuff. A 3-pack (which can be slung like a backpack) of ammo is piddling. 
 
Look at the ammo carrier in the picture. ALL he is carrying is the dual 3-pack. Where is all that other dross you mentioned? Yeah, who cares. It's waiting for him back there, if he survives. If he doesn't, he won't want it.
 
Don't try to overanalyze this based on charts and regs. Think about sweaty men going into combat. A bit different...

Okay, what I gathered from that was NOT to assume that the lights are on, but to look, first.

Yes, I, too, will turtle when I think my losses will...
 
Sorry. I couldn't keep typing that without laughing and losing my focus. Turtle because of losses? Gadzooks! Your men WANT to die for you! They only showed up for this battle so they could prove their mettle! Don't deny them the opportunity.
 
Make some scouts. Hell, designate an entire platoon as a scout platoon. Make 'em expendable. (Don't tell them that. Tell them you've picked them, not because you don't give a toss if any survive, but because you've been impressed by their skills and fortitude. Tell 'em no one else could do what you're about to ask of them.)
 
Anyway, start small, with HUNT. Move a scout team or two up and about. Have one stop in overwatch while the other continues. Keep moving some scouts forward. Keep the ones that survived stationary. If the enemy saw them, the hard spot will go to "?" status after they've been still. On the flip side, the stationary ones will begin to spot more/better.
 
Pick the guys with binos.
 
This is the "slice the pie" approach, or, if you'd prefer, "the camel's nose under the tent", or, "I just want you to touch it once". Whichever you like.
 
Pry open the Lines of Slght and determine which zones are empty of the enemy. Move up more guns and men and dominate the empty space. If the enemy enters, he dies.
 
How will that help you here? Well, the setup zones seem to be minor depressions. Move several scouts up to the top and look around. He's got 88's? Smoke 'em. Once they're blinded, move up some HE tossers and area target the guns. Tanks? Well, you'll need freedom of maneuver, so you'll need to find the guns first.
 
Ken

John,
 
Men going into combat tend to "bomb up". How much do I carry when grocery shopping? Far less than when I think I may be in a firefight and then have to evade in the wilderness for several days.
 
You tend to gravitate towards internet references. If you'd only browsed your own link you just posted, you'd see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIAT#/media/File:Australian_PIAT_team_Balikpapan.jpg  That image clearly shows the ammo man carrying 2 of the three-packs. Now, if I were a PIAT-man, I'd carry the damn launcher AND my own three-pack. So, that's my 3 plus my ammo bearer's 6: 9 in toto.
 
If you want your men to carry less, open the editor and drop the ammo supply level to something other than "full". I don't think your men will thank you for doing them that favor.
 
Bombing up is great tradition of men who may die if they run out of ammo. Men who are overburdened (btw, infantry has carried the same ~80-100lbs of gear since the times of Romans, or earlier), tend to shed stuff they consider excess. Poorly disciplined troops are more prone to this. Their route of march would be covered in discarded bits of kit. In ANY account of such discarding, I have never heard of men tossing out ammo. Better too much, than to run out when your life depends on it.
 
9 bombs? No problem.
 
Ken

John,
 
Men going into combat tend to "bomb up". How much do I carry when grocery shopping? Far less than when I think I may be in a firefight and then have to evade in the wilderness for several days.
 
You tend to gravitate towards internet references. If you'd only browsed your own link you just posted, you'd see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIAT#/media/File:Australian_PIAT_team_Balikpapan.jpg  That image clearly shows the ammo man carrying 2 of the three-packs. Now, if I were a PIAT-man, I'd carry the damn launcher AND my own three-pack. So, that's my 3 plus my ammo bearer's 6: 9 in toto.
 
If you want your men to carry less, open the editor and drop the ammo supply level to something other than "full". I don't think your men will thank you for doing them that favor.
 
Bombing up is great tradition of men who may die if they run out of ammo. Men who are overburdened (btw, infantry has carried the same ~80-100lbs of gear since the times of Romans, or earlier), tend to shed stuff they consider excess. Poorly disciplined troops are more prone to this. Their route of march would be covered in discarded bits of kit. In ANY account of such discarding, I have never heard of men tossing out ammo. Better too much, than to run out when your life depends on it.
 
9 bombs? No problem.
 
Ken

John,
 
Men going into combat tend to "bomb up". How much do I carry when grocery shopping? Far less than when I think I may be in a firefight and then have to evade in the wilderness for several days.
 
You tend to gravitate towards internet references. If you'd only browsed your own link you just posted, you'd see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIAT#/media/File:Australian_PIAT_team_Balikpapan.jpg  That image clearly shows the ammo man carrying 2 of the three-packs. Now, if I were a PIAT-man, I'd carry the damn launcher AND my own three-pack. So, that's my 3 plus my ammo bearer's 6: 9 in toto.
 
If you want your men to carry less, open the editor and drop the ammo supply level to something other than "full". I don't think your men will thank you for doing them that favor.
 
Bombing up is great tradition of men who may die if they run out of ammo. Men who are overburdened (btw, infantry has carried the same ~80-100lbs of gear since the times of Romans, or earlier), tend to shed stuff they consider excess. Poorly disciplined troops are more prone to this. Their route of march would be covered in discarded bits of kit. In ANY account of such discarding, I have never heard of men tossing out ammo. Better too much, than to run out when your life depends on it.
 
9 bombs? No problem.
 
Ken

Good job!
 
This will be has now been reported to BFC. (IanL got there first.)

The hi-res photos clearly show how thin that outer turret cover is. A lot of cotter pins holding it in place.
 
Breakdown: oops. Better to describe it as a demo of the recovery vehicle, preplanned, and part of the parade!

Nice response.
 
Figure 71: 3 teams QUICKing up to the firing line. I'd stagger their moves with pause commands.
 
That Stuart on the road should prove pretty effective. Kind of hard to stand up to 37mm HE/canister and 2 or 3 machineguns.
 
How is your time budget working out?

Hence the "apocryphal" comment. It is, as noted, a great story that should not allow the truth to get in the way.  

Well, the Soviets/Russians were/are great at engineering amphibious vehicles, but I don't know of any amphibious tanks. (DD Shermans excepted.)
 
As far as the volume needed to float a 60 ton tank, well, that's about 60 m^3. (I'll let the metric pedants correct the volume...then I'll toss in the "combat load" weight of 72 tons.  )
 
Back on topic: this new family of vehicles certainly seems to bring a new level of protection to Russian AFV crews. It's yet to be seen how the vehicles perform.
 
(Minor digression: WWII model of US shipping tanks overseas has been blamed for the Sherman not being uparmored. Every ton had to be shipped...twice. Once to England and then to the continent. A similar model appears in today's thinking. Each M1 has to be shipped. One tank per C5 or C17 sortie; although the C5 can lift more mass, the cg/density issues mean only one M1 per aircraft. Ships are less sensitive, but tonnage does add up. The Israelis do not have the expeditionary force requirement that the US has assumed. Their Merkavas take advantage of that and are heavy without needing to plan for shipment to distant theaters. Perhaps the Russians realized that they don't "need" to keep the tanks as light as they once thought?)

Avenger: c'mon, does ANYONE really think this is just a morale-boost jeep? Hell, they could put a loudspeaker on it pumping music, staff it with USO girls ( ), and give away free donuts and it'd probably have a better battlefield effect.
 
I'd rather see a Duster  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M42_Duster . In real life AND in the game.

^^^
The game does a GREAT job of simulating what the remaining crewmembers will do, and how well/poorly the tank will fight because of it. (Unbutton the tank to see what happens. Look at the wrench tab for the status of various weapons. (I =think= it updates based on manning.)) Kieme covered the specifics of your case.

Yeah. I avoided iron for a while. Once I started using it, I haven't looked back. It really does make the game feel/play better. IMHO. It's closer to the ideal of wysiwyg.

Turret/hull down indicator will NEVER happen.
 
Other games have hexsides which specifically give hulldown status from a certain direction (e.g., if the incoming LOF crosses the hulldown hexside). Then there's a to hit modifier and any hit means turret hit. Neat and tidy. Is hulldown for a Tiger the same as hull down for Stuart? Meaning, a wall 1m tall gives more cover to the Stuart than to a Tiger. Are they both "hull down"? What if the ground slopes down behind the cover. A tank 10m back has more cover than a tank 1m back. Are they equally hull down?
 
As well, the game does not model each tank's specific viewing port. (I'd like THIS to be changed before ANYTHING else in the game.) Each tank has certain "generic" spotting heights. That's the ELOS system. We get some interesting effects in the game in certain outlier cases because of it. (I understand and agree with the reasoning for doing this. The LOS table needs SOME simplifications in order to process any game map before entropy cools our universe.)
 
Because the game takes a very granular look at unit locations and exposure, a hull-down meter will never be useful. It requires a "hull-down from WHERE?" to be answered.
 
 
Temp camo: I -think- there is a bonus to units which stay in their setup location, representing such a thing. Hmmm. If not, there should be...with an icon representing the status.
 
Ken

Mobility on Defense:  This does not mean (necessarily) to withdraw to switch positions. Rather, each unit on the firing line needs to displace. A linear bocage line would give a good example...
 
Defending a bocage line should be done on-line. (Kind of hard to do it any other way.) However, break those squads up! After a turn, move 1/3 of your teams over a few action spots. (Pull back, shift laterally, move forward...with a covered arc.) Sure, it'll reduce your outgoing fire, but you're not doing much. No unit stays and "takes" accurate fire. Your guys are more effective as a threat and suppressing. So, a few teams off the firing line really don't make a difference. (Don't let my men know I just said that.)
 
In exchange, you're keeping the enemy from calling in accurate direct fire. He shoots here...you're there.
 
Likewise, fire one team from the upper floor, then time a lower floor team to take up the fight while the upper floor guys go somewhere else.
 
Leave the attacker looking at a field of "?" markers. No matter how good he is at suppressing, he'll run out of ammo before he hits your MLR. At least, that's the theory.

I find su25 strafing also does a good job of stripping EVERYTHING off my Abrams.

I find su25 strafing also does a good job of stripping EVERYTHING off my Abrams.

Great idea!!

Just reading your initial post, I can already spot your issue: you must ATTACK!

No doubt your losses to IanL are due to your men feeling morose and forlorn. Can you blame them? A tentative commander, with a loose grasp of battle, hoping that somehow hiding behind earthworks like some sort of prey run to ground, will defeat an offensive force is a mistaken commander.

Let your men know that you're serious. Nothing better displays that kind of fortitude than a gamey first turn flag rush.

Zerg zerg!



This should be intersting. We'll need screenshots, maps with big arrows, and pots of coffee.

Ken

I find su25 strafing also does a good job of stripping EVERYTHING off my Abrams.

Nothing official, but I'd think "Bulge" and "RT" will end up going to the end of ETO on each front. Then? I'd love to see earlier East Front, and ealier West. ('41 in Russia would allow using the early German gear in the West. '40 France would be...interesting.)
 
I'm not sure what modern warfare will bring. Modules for Black Sea to bring in airborne, marines, Nato? The oft-requested CMSF rebuild? Shrug.
 
Personally, despite all the hard-fought battles in the Pacific, I'm not interested in gaming it. (I liken it to the heavy forest ambushes in CM; bloody, and won by overwhelming firepower...always at a cost.)
 
Ken