Skinning Cats

[Bud Backer]

Introduction:

IanL and Method Gamer started two threads seeking contribution and discussion from the forum members in order to improve knowledge and share techniques in playing CMBN (and I think largely transferable to other CM games). Something not really discussed because it was outside the scope of their scenario is how to deal with the German heavy armour - Tiger I, Tiger II, Panther - as the allies, especially before the introduction of units like the Pershing. I checked with Ian and he didn't think this would have much overlap with his own thread, so here goes!

Edited May 11, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

The problem:

I've played the Germans plenty of times and am fairly comfortable getting decent performance from their kit. Hardly expert, but I don't feel handicapped using them. I've played a lot against a good friend who is new to CM games, and he has consistently complained about being unable to deal with my use of the Panther and Tiger I against him. My play against German opponents in the past made it a tough challenge but I'd fare better than my friend fighting me. I suggested we swap sides for a number of games and let him take the Germans, while I take the allies.

I definitely feel that there is a difference in how one fights as the allies. I've not had the success I did as the Germans, especially when one does meeting engagements where I do not have either superior numbers, or prepared positions to compensate for what feels like a qualitative disadvantage.

I'm hoping with this thread, and the comments/discussion it brings, I get a better idea of how to handle German armour as the allies, and also have something to show my friend when it's all done to boost his game as allies in the future.

[AttorneyAtWar]

Introduction:

IanL and Method Gamer started two threads seeking contribution and discussion from the forum members in order to improve knowledge and share techniques in playing CMBN (and I think largely transferable to other CM games). Something not really discussed because it was outside the scope of their scenario is how to deal with the German heavy armour - Tiger I, Tiger II, Panther - as the allies, especially before the introduction of units like the Pershing. I checked with Ian and he didn't think this would have much overlap with his own thread, so here goes!

 

76 Shermans, Fireflys, Hell cats, M10's and allied Towed AT are more than a match, you just need to get them into position. Against kitties like the panther a good flank with even a stuart will be able to easily knock it out, the panthers side armor is only about 40mm thick.

 

Use artillery to bracket panzers so you can blind them by smashing optics ETC, and follow up with some smoke rounds to close with your own tanks.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Raptorx7

[Bud Backer]

The map: Meet Med Bocage (Water)

Conditions: Midday, meeting engagement, I am Canadians, he is Wehrmacht. He is starting in the East (right map) and I'm in the West (left map).

Overview:

Center detail

Edited May 11, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

76 Shermans, Fireflys, Hell cats, M10's and allied Towed AT are more than a match, you just need to get them into position. Against kitties like the panther a good flank with even a stuart will be able to easily knock it out, the panthers side armor is only about 40mm thick.

 

Use artillery to bracket panzers so you can blind them by smashing optics ETC, and follow up with some smoke rounds to close with your own tanks.

In theory, I know all this from reading military books for ages. Implementation however is another thing. When playing the Germans I take great pains to avoid offering the enemy a flank, as I've seem even an M8 armoured car penetrate the turret side armour of a panther from 250m away. As the Germans I maintain good distance from my targets, I screen my precious heavy tanks with infantry and light armour and it's worked very well for me.

I seem to be unable to be very effective in countering that approach, however.

I also find artillery virtually useless in a meeting engagement, (which may be me and my own lack of skill). Doing what you suggest in a battle where the enemy is unlikely to sit in one spot for more than 2-3 min seems like chasing unicorns.

So what happens is that I end up turtling. I get extremely cautious, and frustrated, because I can't seem to move ahead. I'm dependent on my enemy coming to me and attempting to surprise him and flank him. That discards any strategic initiative I may have, which is not a good thing for any commander to do.

[AttorneyAtWar]

In theory, I know all this from reading military books for ages. Implementation however is another thing. When playing the Germans I take great pains to avoid offering the enemy a flank, as I've seem even an M8 armoured car penetrate the turret side armour of a panther from 250m away. As the Germans I maintain good distance from my targets, I screen my precious heavy tanks with infantry and light armour and it's worked very well for me.

I seem to be unable to be very effective in countering that approach, however.

I also find artillery virtually useless in a meeting engagement, (which may be me and my own lack of skill). Doing what you suggest in a battle where the enemy is unlikely to sit in one spot for more than 2-3 min seems like chasing unicorns.

So what happens is that I end up turtling. I get extremely cautious, and frustrated, because I can't seem to move ahead. I'm dependent on my enemy coming to me and attempting to surprise him and flank him. That discards any strategic initiative I may have, which is not a good thing for any commander to do.

 

I have the same problem as you, but I think the most important thing you can do is maintain your ability to maneuver, especially in a meeting engagement. Dropping smoke over half of that map or even a side at the beginning will screen your maneuvers. For example, on that map, dropping smoke in the eastern side of the river will allow you to move your armored vehicles into that eastern forest overlooking the bridge unmolested, establish most of your armor there. Now your enemy has to either attack you or completely forfeit that objective even if neither of you control it, with that position in hand you can maneuver your infantry into the objective. Obviously I am no expert but a plan is better than no plan, force your enemy to react, do not react to him, keep your tempo up and him off guard.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Raptorx7

[Bud Backer]

I have the same problem as you, but I think the most important thing you can do is maintain your ability to maneuver, especially in a meeting engagement. Dropping smoke over half of that map or even a side at the beginning will screen your maneuvers. For example, on that map, dropping smoke in the eastern side of the river will allow you to move your armored vehicles into that eastern forest overlooking the bridge unmolested, establish most of your armor there. Now your enemy has to either attack you or completely forfeit that objective even if neither of you control it, with that position in hand you can maneuver your infantry into the objective. Obviously I am no expert but a plan is better than no plan, force your enemy to react, do not react to him, keep your tempo up and him off guard.

Right, so the smoke idea is something I considered but thought I was being gamey or even unrealistic. I used it extensively in CMBS in the one battle I ever won in that game.

Here's my worry - the land is gently rolling, with trees that will leave things close to ground level quite exposed. Let me show you.

There are a lot of open spaces. I can cover the objectives but I don't think I can help but be obvious and a ready target for those nice 88's!

You can see the foot bridge ahead, and the river. There are 2 bridges and 4 fords total on the map.

This is the view from near my start position, looking down the slope toward the river. You can see the brighter yellowish objective in the distance.

It seems like there is a lot of cover, but in fact, I am not convinced that there is much at all...

Edited May 11, 2015 by Bud_B

[delliejonut]

I've looked at that map in passing before. I don't know if you allow preplanned arty in QB's, but I don't so I'll give you advice based on my experience. If you're allowed to have TRP's, get them. It also helps to have a single highly trained FO team. The idea with the TRP's is to put them on top of obvious infantry cover- in buildings, reverse slopes, woods, and whatever you deem necessary. You don't need to put them everywhere you think they might go, only in places where they can set up and fire on your forces. This is dependent on where you plan on maneuvering. You might want to cover one flank with arty so you can maneuver to the side. You might just want it on the objective. It just depends on your plan and your preference.

 

As far as cover goes, it looks like there's plenty of light woods cover for your infantry, but they could easy get cut off and destroyed if they try to hunker down and fight from them. They mostly need to find good cover and stay down unless they have good odds to kill or are suppressing for other maneuvering units.

 

You don't want to use woods for your tanks. What you need above all else are good hull down positions and reverse slopes/smoke. The way I use my tanks is pretty simple. Use some to provide overwatch from a hull down position (if possible) and maneuver with the others. The idea of the hull down overwatch is to give the enemy something to worry about and cut off fields of maneuver. In all likelihood his tanks and yours will see each other and open fire on each other. They will probably miss and yours might hit but will cause no damage. This is fine. At this point you begin maneuvering your other tank force to get side shots and use your overwatching tanks to shoot and scoot against enemy infantry. The point isn't necessarily to cause a whole bunch of casualties, the point is to be a threat and stay alive. Keep your maneuver force safe from 'shrecks and behind some sort of screen until you can get into a good firing position of about 90 degrees from their front. Once this happens the enemy will have to pull back or risk getting shot in the side from one direction or another. Assuming you don't lose forces at this point you are in control

[c3k]

Yes, I, too, will turtle when I think my losses will...

 

Sorry. I couldn't keep typing that without laughing and losing my focus. Turtle because of losses? Gadzooks! Your men WANT to die for you! They only showed up for this battle so they could prove their mettle! Don't deny them the opportunity.

 

Make some scouts. Hell, designate an entire platoon as a scout platoon. Make 'em expendable. (Don't tell them that. Tell them you've picked them, not because you don't give a toss if any survive, but because you've been impressed by their skills and fortitude. Tell 'em no one else could do what you're about to ask of them.)

 

Anyway, start small, with HUNT. Move a scout team or two up and about. Have one stop in overwatch while the other continues. Keep moving some scouts forward. Keep the ones that survived stationary. If the enemy saw them, the hard spot will go to "?" status after they've been still. On the flip side, the stationary ones will begin to spot more/better.

 

Pick the guys with binos.

 

This is the "slice the pie" approach, or, if you'd prefer, "the camel's nose under the tent", or, "I just want you to touch it once". Whichever you like.

 

Pry open the Lines of Slght and determine which zones are empty of the enemy. Move up more guns and men and dominate the empty space. If the enemy enters, he dies.

 

How will that help you here? Well, the setup zones seem to be minor depressions. Move several scouts up to the top and look around. He's got 88's? Smoke 'em. Once they're blinded, move up some HE tossers and area target the guns. Tanks? Well, you'll need freedom of maneuver, so you'll need to find the guns first.

 

Ken

[Bud Backer]

I've looked at that map in passing before. I don't know if you allow preplanned arty in QB's, but I don't so I'll give you advice based on my experience. If you're allowed to have TRP's, get them. It also helps to have a single highly trained FO team. The idea with the TRP's is to put them on top of obvious infantry cover- in buildings, reverse slopes, woods, and whatever you deem necessary. You don't need to put them everywhere you think they might go, only in places where they can set up and fire on your forces. This is dependent on where you plan on maneuvering. You might want to cover one flank with arty so you can maneuver to the side. You might just want it on the objective. It just depends on your plan and your preference.

 

As far as cover goes, it looks like there's plenty of light woods cover for your infantry, but they could easy get cut off and destroyed if they try to hunker down and fight from them. They mostly need to find good cover and stay down unless they have good odds to kill or are suppressing for other maneuvering units.

 

You don't want to use woods for your tanks. What you need above all else are good hull down positions and reverse slopes/smoke. The way I use my tanks is pretty simple. Use some to provide overwatch from a hull down position (if possible) and maneuver with the others. The idea of the hull down overwatch is to give the enemy something to worry about and cut off fields of maneuver. In all likelihood his tanks and yours will see each other and open fire on each other. They will probably miss and yours might hit but will cause no damage. This is fine. At this point you begin maneuvering your other tank force to get side shots and use your overwatching tanks to shoot and scoot against enemy infantry. The point isn't necessarily to cause a whole bunch of casualties, the point is to be a threat and stay alive. Keep your maneuver force safe from 'shrecks and behind some sort of screen until you can get into a good firing position of about 90 degrees from their front. Once this happens the enemy will have to pull back or risk getting shot in the side from one direction or another. Assuming you don't lose forces at this point you are in control

TRPs are indeed something I can get. I considered that. But I am wondering how much arty to buy. Back to that later when I discuss my purchases and what you guys think of them...

I definitely think that having arty able to scare him into backing away from places that can target me easily is a good idea. It isn't cheap to have the FOO, TRPs and sufficient arty, but it might be exactly what I need. What scares me is what I can do to stop him if he just charges across the river. Last game he showed up with 4 Panthers - which was not fun. I killed 2 and likely had the game not ended would have done in a third but still...there was bocage and lots of cover so I had places to hide. On this map, I feel as if I'm in the open, everywhere.

I looked for reverse slopes. There is one lump mid map, but otherwise, the only reverse slope is just ahead of my starting positions, that seems too far back to be effective if I try to push at all forward. In fact, it's so far back I would have to let him cross the river, and that seems a bad idea. Isn't it? A natural barrier like that is peculiar to concede...

[Bud Backer]

Yes, I, too, will turtle when I think my losses will...

 

Sorry. I couldn't keep typing that without laughing and losing my focus. Turtle because of losses? Gadzooks! Your men WANT to die for you! They only showed up for this battle so they could prove their mettle! Don't deny them the opportunity.

 

Make some scouts. Hell, designate an entire platoon as a scout platoon. Make 'em expendable. (Don't tell them that. Tell them you've picked them, not because you don't give a toss if any survive, but because you've been impressed by their skills and fortitude. Tell 'em no one else could do what you're about to ask of them.)

 

Anyway, start small, with HUNT. Move a scout team or two up and about. Have one stop in overwatch while the other continues. Keep moving some scouts forward. Keep the ones that survived stationary. If the enemy saw them, the hard spot will go to "?" status after they've been still. On the flip side, the stationary ones will begin to spot more/better.

 

Pick the guys with binos.

 

This is the "slice the pie" approach, or, if you'd prefer, "the camel's nose under the tent", or, "I just want you to touch it once". Whichever you like.

 

Pry open the Lines of Slght and determine which zones are empty of the enemy. Move up more guns and men and dominate the empty space. If the enemy enters, he dies.

 

How will that help you here? Well, the setup zones seem to be minor depressions. Move several scouts up to the top and look around. He's got 88's? Smoke 'em. Once they're blinded, move up some HE tossers and area target the guns. Tanks? Well, you'll need freedom of maneuver, so you'll need to find the guns first.

 

Ken

Ken, I'm so glad you dropped by, I was hoping you would because I love your AARs and wondered if you might be able to enlighten me.

So the message I'm getting from you is to scout with small units. The object being to locate the enemy. Fair enough, that makes sense. My original idea was to plunk four PIAT teams in two jeeps and rush them forward to the woods near the river and hide them for ambushing. I take it that would NOT be your approach?

Now, in my post earlier I referred to 88's. I meant those attached to Tigers, and not the AA gun. And therein lies what I feel is my biggest challenge - getting freedom of maneuver. Still hung up on creating that...

[Bud Backer]

To give more information to go on and a frame of reference for everyone (including me!) I've marked up the overhead view map.

Also I misremembered the name; it's actually Meet Med Forest (Water) QB-257

Edited May 12, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

The Preliminary Plan: (open to suggestions - in fact I'm asking for them!)

Basically I want to smoke a line across the middle of the map, but on his side. If he wants to occupy his objectives it would be nice if he had to come into my waiting guns, at least as first. Ill have to back away fast to avoid a bad matchup once he does arrive. So with the smoke, I have to wait a turn for it to develop more fully (made the mistake of thinking a smoke screen forms the turn you start firing - not good!) then charge forward with my fireflies. One behind the low ridge so that it is firing sideways across at his units coming to the southern objective. I'd like to keep the second Firefly over watching the first from hull down on the ridge directly west.

Two jeeps each with sniper and PIAT team will go to the woods in front of each objective and hide. Their job is to watch for him and give me info I need to flank his armour. If he parks his armour out of flanking position for me, then I need arty to encourage him to displace.

My two platoons of infantry are to split off and scout, as c3k suggested. I'll keep a full squad from each on overwatch, but I want to know if he is trying to use the fords at the north and south map edges as he attempt to flank me. That's where the PIATs already in the woods may be crucial.

What do I need to pull this off?

I can only afford two Fireflies, as Rarity is set to normal. I have 2560 points to spend as does my opponent. I intend to spend the points needed to get those Fireflies as I think they offer me the best chance to take out the big cats at something other than suicide range.

I was going to buy three platoons of infantry but I'm thinking of cutting it down to two - this will not be a static fight and the ground pounders are my scouts not my fists.

I'm reluctant to buy ATGs in a maneuver battle, but I wonder if two 17lbrs hull down on my Ridgeline is a good idea, sniping at his tanks when they expose themselves. I have to check the sight lines. If he has to be on my side of the river to use them then there seems little point.

A troop of 4 off-map 25lbrs seems like a decent compromise between power and cost. They give me smoke and HE. That would cost 1/6th of my points. With TRPs as suggested above. Have to think about where to put them. Maybe a second troop? Not sure I want to spend 1/3 of my points on arty? I'll need at least one if not two FOOs.

I'm not sure, but I think perhaps some HMGs on my ridge line, for the same logic as the ATGs, might give me some longer range anti infantry power.

For some reason, my gut tells me he will try to push through along the southern edge. But that's just a wild guess and I maybe really off base there. The reason I think it is because the houses will provide cover for his men and a chance to establish a base of fire there.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Bud_B

[delliejonut]

I agree with your prediction that he will try to take the southern flank first. It just makes sense- he can get to that cover before you. I also agree with your 17lbrs. I think you are going to have to give ground to kill his forces. He probably feels safer maneuvering than you do, so it'll be your job to make him come and get you. If I were you I would "attack" in the places where you want him to attack you. Keep your infantry in LOS of your big guns if you can, and don't attack with the intention of holding ground early on. Be just out of his reach (but still annoying).

 

I think any infantry you put in your FO will have to be maneuvered north eventually to take that objective, so you might be better off just leaving them in reserve around the north treelines. That way they aren't getting shot at and don't lose morale until they need to. You might want to keep an additional HQ unit that can call in arty behind the FO just in case the FO bites the dust.

 

Also, you don't have to buy all 5 TRPs. I would just buy two- one for each objective. 

 

My plan for this map would be play conservative and allow him to take the objectives if he wants to, kill his armor when he overextends, then barrage the objectives with arty and direct fire right before you assault with your infantry.

 

Also what Ken said. The more eyes you have around the better you can react. Be the evil supervillain stroking your furry white cat and laughing at the security monitors. If you don't have a cat a micropig is a good substitute. Good luck! Keep us updated

[Bud Backer]

I'm off to bed so I will reply more intelligently tomorrow. But I'll toss out this one other major concern:

What if he stops on the objectives on his side? I can't win by sitting waaaay back on my side of the map. At best I can get a draw if I get a man on each objective and hide them.

What then? Is arty the solution? An adequate one?

(Put please don't stop the rest of the strategizing, this is one possibility, but he may very well want to see if he can destroy me utterly.)

Edited May 12, 2015 by Bud_B

[delliejonut]

If I were him I would push the attack. It's easy to get overconfident with that kind of armor. I could be wrong though, so if he does decide to sit back you need to use recon to find safe lanes to maneuver in close, then bloody his nose. You have fast tanks- the closer you can get unobserved, the easier it will be to flank him. Even though you have Firefly's, you don't want a Rocky Balboa type fight. Get on his flank and gut punch him

 

But if I were him I would rely on my tanks being able to take frontal hits, and move up until I could decisively engage you. Funny thing about the Panther and Tiger though is even when you take a non penetrating frontal hit from a 75mm gun, there's a good chance your main gun will be knocked out.

 

And I'm serious about the micropig. Having adorable evil pets is a huge confidence booster.

Edited May 12, 2015 by delliejonut

[c3k]

delliejonut makes some good points: You should get a micropig.

 

Cede the initiative to him. Really. Let him show you his, first. You cannot afford to mis-place your Fireflies. If you plan on jumping them out on the north side, and that's where his Tigers/Panthers are, you'll be in a face-to-face confrontation which, vis-a-vis Firefly and Panther, won't be in your favor.

 

Whereas I eschew the research that others undertake, perhaps you should open up a similar QB and see what your oppo could buy? Something to chew on... He may only be able to afford one or two and nothing else. That could help you decide.

 

OBA is immune to enemy action. You just need to keep a unit with a radio alive on the map. The TRP's will help. (I agree 2 may be better than 5. Just extend the arty pattern if needed. Maybe a third TRP.)

 

What will 17pdr's gain you? They need towing vehicles and TIME to emplace. I'd pick something else.

[JonS]

So, I agree with the points already made, and this is really just elaboration rather than anything particularly new, and this is general, rather than related to the specific situation you're facing, but ...

In theory, I know all this from reading military books for ages. Implementation however is another thing. When playing the Germans I take great pains to avoid offering the enemy a flank, as I've seem even an M8 armoured car penetrate the turret side armour of a panther from 250m away. As the Germans I maintain good distance from my targets, I screen my precious heavy tanks with infantry and light armour and it's worked very well for me.

Right, so what you might want to try is to disrupt that same kind of coordination amongst your enemy's forces. He will probably also try and keep his tanks back, and avoid offering a flank, and screen his tanks with his infantry. So rather than trying to take down his whole defensive scheme in one go, instead try to identify, isolate, and attack a piece of it that will weaken the whole scheme. Then rinse-repeat in an expanding snowball. For example, try to avoid his armour (using smoke, maybe, or terrain masking?) while you wear down his infantry screen. Then go after his heavy weapons, then go after the now-unsupported and un-screened tanks.

 

That concept is pretty easy to grasp, I think. But as always, the tricky bit is in the execution. And I suck at the execution The thing I find hardest is working the timings to achieve anything worthwhile within the time available. I can usually identify and isolate, and weaken a bit, but not enough to make an appreciable difference before time runs out. I think I need to get better at guesstimating what he has, and the kind of deployments he's using, based on the fragments of information I've won, rather than waiting till I have the whole picture before doing anything.

 

A really sophisticated application (yes, I'm looking at you, Bil) would have different bits of identify/isolate/reduce going on at different places on the battlefield at the same time, in response to the micro-local situations. So, for example on the left flank the inf screen is gone so work on taking down the heavy weapons, while in the centre the screen is still there so that's getting the love. Or sumfink.

Edited May 12, 2015 by JonS

[delliejonut]

A really sophisticated application (yes, I'm looking at you, Bil) would have different bits of identify/isolate/reduce going on at different places on the battlefield at the same time, in response to the micro-pig situations.

 

FTFY

 

I need to go to bed

Edited May 12, 2015 by delliejonut

[Bud Backer]

I agree with your prediction that he will try to take the southern flank first. It just makes sense- he can get to that cover before you. I also agree with your 17lbrs. I think you are going to have to give ground to kill his forces. He probably feels safer maneuvering than you do, so it'll be your job to make him come and get you. If I were you I would "attack" in the places where you want him to attack you. Keep your infantry in LOS of your big guns if you can, and don't attack with the intention of holding ground early on. Be just out of his reach (but still annoying).

I think any infantry you put in your FO will have to be maneuvered north eventually to take that objective, so you might be better off just leaving them in reserve around the north treelines. That way they aren't getting shot at and don't lose morale until they need to. You might want to keep an additional HQ unit that can call in arty behind the FO just in case the FO bites the dust.

Also, you don't have to buy all 5 TRPs. I would just buy two- one for each objective.

My plan for this map would be play conservative and allow him to take the objectives if he wants to, kill his armor when he overextends, then barrage the objectives with arty and direct fire right before you assault with your infantry.

Also what Ken said. The more eyes you have around the better you can react. Be the evil supervillain stroking your furry white cat and laughing at the security monitors. If you don't have a cat a micropig is a good substitute. Good luck! Keep us updated

Really good point: keeping the infantry in LOS of the big guns. If I can get the enemy to attack the infantry close enough, I may be able to bait them into some flank shots. Thank you for that!

Yes, keeping the infantry largely in the second line of trees seems like a good idea. Scouts of course would go more forward but that would limit how much if my infantry is exposed.

A theme repeated by Ken below is to give ground. It seems to me I have no choice. My hope is that

1) my opponent does not stop at the objectives and wait for me to come to him, (I firmly believe that is exactly what he will do)

2) if he does advance far forward, that I still have the maneuvering room I need.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

If I were him I would push the attack. It's easy to get overconfident with that kind of armor. I could be wrong though, so if he does decide to sit back you need to use recon to find safe lanes to maneuver in close, then bloody his nose. You have fast tanks- the closer you can get unobserved, the easier it will be to flank him. Even though you have Firefly's, you don't want a Rocky Balboa type fight. Get on his flank and gut punch him

 

But if I were him I would rely on my tanks being able to take frontal hits, and move up until I could decisively engage you. Funny thing about the Panther and Tiger though is even when you take a non penetrating frontal hit from a 75mm gun, there's a good chance your main gun will be knocked out.

 

And I'm serious about the micropig. Having adorable evil pets is a huge confidence booster.

I have repeatedly punished him for overextending himself in previous games. Brutally. This is why I think he will be quite wary.

Curiously, he did tell me he thought Fireflies are not a game changer here. (He knows I wanted the Canadians for the possibility of having them). Now I know it's very dangerous to put too much stock in a particular weapon system because you rely too much on its potential rather than tactical prowess. But still, I do think I want them over regular M4A3s...

[womble]

Fireflies certainly are a gamechanger. Their gun is capable of taking on the German armour at significantly increased range, even from the front and their first-shot percentage should be sufficiently increased over L/48 75mm to make pop-up attacks much more deadly. They let you threaten his front, and increase the range at which you can penetrate the flanks of his Tigers significantly. More options for you means more contingencies he has to cover.

 

The map looks deceptive: those trees will give you much better sight screening than you think, I suspect. Still, you're going to need smoke to get across the river and clear the objectives. Are all the fords accessible to vehicles (you can check fordability with the movement cursor, for any given unit type).

[Bud Backer]

delliejonut makes some good points: You should get a micropig.

Cede the initiative to him. Really. Let him show you his, first. You cannot afford to mis-place your Fireflies. If you plan on jumping them out on the north side, and that's where his Tigers/Panthers are, you'll be in a face-to-face confrontation which, vis-a-vis Firefly and Panther, won't be in your favor.

Whereas I eschew the research that others undertake, perhaps you should open up a similar QB and see what your oppo could buy? Something to chew on... He may only be able to afford one or two and nothing else. That could help you decide.

OBA is immune to enemy action. You just need to keep a unit with a radio alive on the map. The TRP's will help. (I agree 2 may be better than 5. Just extend the arty pattern if needed. Maybe a third TRP.)

What will 17pdr's gain you? They need towing vehicles and TIME to emplace. I'd pick something else.

You're right, moving the fireflies even to the berm/short ridge mid map is risky. But where to put them initially? Hull down on my ridgeline?

I know from playing the Germans enough that he can afford 4 Panthers or three Tigers, due to rarity limits. Last game he took the 4 Panthers. I'd prefer 4 Panthers over the 3 Tigers as the former are easier to penetrate from the side.

I am indeed cutting down the TRPs - they cost rarity and I can't buy more than 2!

The 17lbrs were something I vacillated on...I could afford quite a few, but with a packup and setup time of combined over 11 min, they would at best be a single shot weapon and that is not practical for a maneuver battle. You've confirmed my thinking.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

So, I agree with the points already made, and this is really just elaboration rather than anything particularly new, and this is general, rather than related to the specific situation you're facing, but ...

Right, so what you might want to try is to disrupt that same kind of coordination amongst your enemy's forces. He will probably also try and keep his tanks back, and avoid offering a flank, and screen his tanks with his infantry. So rather than trying to take down his whole defensive scheme in one go, instead try to identify, isolate, and attack a piece of it that will weaken the whole scheme. Then rinse-repeat in an expanding snowball. For example, try to avoid his armour (using smoke, maybe, or terrain masking?) while you wear down his infantry screen. Then go after his heavy weapons, then go after the now-unsupported and un-screened tanks.

 

That concept is pretty easy to grasp, I think. But as always, the tricky bit is in the execution. And I suck at the execution The thing I find hardest is working the timings to achieve anything worthwhile within the time available. I can usually identify and isolate, and weaken a bit, but not enough to make an appreciable difference before time runs out. I think I need to get better at guesstimating what he has, and the kind of deployments he's using, based on the fragments of information I've won, rather than waiting till I have the whole picture before doing anything.

 

A really sophisticated application (yes, I'm looking at you, Bil) would have different bits of identify/isolate/reduce going on at different places on the battlefield at the same time, in response to the micro-local situations. So, for example on the left flank the inf screen is gone so work on taking down the heavy weapons, while in the centre the screen is still there so that's getting the love. Or sumfink.

Jon, you've completely captured my problem. Conceptually simple situation to handle, but execution is quite another matter. I get the ideas but to coordinate so many things, make sure it's properly timed is to me inordinately difficult. I suspect I lack experience.

[Bud Backer]

Fireflies certainly are a gamechanger. Their gun is capable of taking on the German armour at significantly increased range, even from the front and their first-shot percentage should be sufficiently increased over L/48 75mm to make pop-up attacks much more deadly. They let you threaten his front, and increase the range at which you can penetrate the flanks of his Tigers significantly. More options for you means more contingencies he has to cover.

 

The map looks deceptive: those trees will give you much better sight screening than you think, I suspect. Still, you're going to need smoke to get across the river and clear the objectives. Are all the fords accessible to vehicles (you can check fordability with the movement cursor, for any given unit type).

Well that's what I thought! Properly used, fireflies should indeed be a game changer. Ask Wittman! Haha

Can a firefly penetrate -IN GAME, not theoretically- a panther or tiger's frontal armour? I wonder at what range... The map is only 700m from my end to his end so when we meet, I'd expect to be shooting at sub-400m ranges.

Crickey, I didn't think of the fords not being accessible to vehicles. I think they were all shallow. Will have to double check. And tell him. He doesn't know the game as well and didn't even realize there WERE fords until I pointed them out. I want to be fair about this...

I'm still not convinced about the cover, Womble, but I hope you're right! If you have additional thoughts I'd love to hear them on the subject.