More Pie in the sky questions about CM2:Normandy

[SlapHappy]

Well, I must say that's a very SANITARY version of what would happen to unprotected infantry mowed down a ma deuce!

Come to think of it, I probably wouldn't want to see what that would look like.

[Clavicula_Nox]

I am of the opinion that Audie Murphy can pull the charging handle any damn way he pleases. If he were around, would YOU tell him he's wrong?

Probably, and if he isn't professional enough to take the correction, then that's his problem, not mine. I don't buy into "hero worship."

FYI, what difference does underhand versus overhand make? Other than ergonomic?

You can slice the top of your hand open on the piece that holds the belt in place; same as the M249 and M240, so yes, there is a reason to do it underhanded. I've seen it happen a few times with both .50cal and 249s.

[silverstars]

Glad you are feeling better from your week-long sickness Steve.

I am still curious as to how detailed the water will be. I recall that Assault boats are not showing up, but I was still curious as to how many types of water tiles there will be, if more then one, and their effects on Infantry, Vehicles, AFVs, etc.

[Lukmak5]

Hi all

Hi Steve

Could we please have open public beta testing like Sins of a Solar Empire and DOW2 had? Meaning, whoever would pre-order the game would be able to download most recent beta. Pretty please with cherry on top.

Cheers

Luke

[Pvt. Ryan]

Many would argue that they did that with CMSF.

[Lukmak5]

Many would argue that they did that with CMSF.

Really? Must have missed that...

I remember SoSE public got access to early beatas (there were about 5 of them, not counting downloadable fixes) about a year and a half before final release.

The advantages are obvious, we get finished and polished product, game gets better reviews, and developers get some early cash to keep the show going (I assume more gamers would pre-order if they knew they getting something instantly)

Cheers

Luke

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Really? Must have missed that...

You didn't, really. Pvt. Ryan is referring to the fact that CM:SF was so buggy when it first came out that the first several months after its release was practically beta testing.

[Flanker15]

I've got a question that I haven't seen yet:

Will we be able to hitch guns onto trucks and apcs?

[Thomm]

Come to think of it, I probably wouldn't want to see what that would look like.

There is a documentary called "John Rambo", which shows it in sufficient detail, I suppose.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Jon Hagstad]

There is a documentary called "John Rambo", which shows it in sufficient detail, I suppose.

Best regards,

Thomm

BWAHAHAHA!

..sorry...

[Dietrich]

Speaking of Audie Murphy, I recall reading an article in Military History magazine a few years ago about a certain American soldier (sorry, but I can't remember his name and the unit he was in and how many enemy soldiers he "accounted for") whose numerous exploits -- at least six instances of taking out machine-gun nests singlehandedly, inducing the surrender of entire enemy platoons, that sort of thing -- somehow failed to earn him the Medal of Honor. He was decorated, but many felt he had more than earned the Medal of Honor. Also, he met Audie Murphy at a reunion event a few years after the war and was disheartened that Murphy preferred to talk about his movie career than about soldierly experiences. I'll dig out that magazine and get back to y'all with specifics (name, birth place, unit, combat record, etc.).

[Michael Emrys]

Speaking of Audie Murphy, I recall reading an article in Military History magazine a few years ago...

It may have been more recent than that. I recall reading either the same thing or something similar in the last year. Could it have been in World War II magazine?

Michael

[H.W. Guderian]

The Families can not work together. That's because each Family is "frozen" so we can move onto the next one.

Steve

Does that mean I should stop working on my "One platoon of Abrams takes on Kampfgruppe Peiper in open desert" OS X native scenario? Really???

=(

[Sequoia]

Speaking of Audie Murphy, I recall reading an article in Military History magazine a few years ago about a certain American soldier (sorry, but I can't remember his name and the unit he was in and how many enemy soldiers he "accounted for") whose numerous exploits -- at least six instances of taking out machine-gun nests singlehandedly, inducing the surrender of entire enemy platoons, that sort of thing -- somehow failed to earn him the Medal of Honor. He was decorated, but many felt he had more than earned the Medal of Honor. Also, he met Audie Murphy at a reunion event a few years after the war and was disheartened that Murphy preferred to talk about his movie career than about soldierly experiences. I'll dig out that magazine and get back to y'all with specifics (name, birth place, unit, combat record, etc.).

And I suppose if he had talked about his war record the guy would have called him a braggart. Its hard to live up to every ones expectations.

[MarkEzra]

Its hard to live up to every ones expectations.

My understanding is that Murphy suffered terribly from PTSD. His successive wives all testified to the nightmares, violent mood swings, and combat hallucinations. There was little help for him and all the others who came home so dramatically impacted by War's reality. Making movies, even bad ones, had to have been one hell of lot more gratifying...

[Joe Shaw]

Murphy was awarded the Medal of Honor ... from Wikipedia, the Official Reference work of the Peng Challenge Thread ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy#Medal_of_Honor_citation

Joe

[mike_the_wino]

Joe you addled old boob, no one was disputing Murphy having won the MoH. The post way up the page was about another soldier whose exploits were as dramatic, if not more so, as Murphy's but did not receive the MoH.

You goofy old feck.

[Joe Shaw]

Joe you addled old boob, no one was disputing Murphy having won the MoH. The post way up the page was about another soldier whose exploits were as dramatic, if not more so, as Murphy's but did not receive the MoH.

You goofy old feck.

DYW* ... It was clearly poorly written then ... if I misread it then, by definition, it wasn't written well.

* dadgummed young whippersnappers.

Joe

[Pvt. Ryan]

Is the WWII game going to have buddy aid, or is it not realistic in a WWII setting?

[Battlefront.com]

Buddy Aid will definitely be in WWII games. It might be a little less effective, but maybe not. Gunshot and fragmentation wounds aren't that different and the "tools" available to the soldiers in the immediate area aren't necessarily all that much better now than they were back in WW2. What is MASSIVELY improved is the system of taking wounded off the battlefield and getting them to the level of medical attention they need.

Steve

[Dietrich]

Quoting from the article "Above, Beyond and Forgotten" from the April 2006 issue of World War II magazine:

Llewellyn M. Chilson should be a household name—President Harry S. Truman thought so*. At a White House Ceremony on December 6, 1946, the president pinned seven combat awards on the chest of Master Sergeant Chilson. As he gazed at the medals covering the sergeant's uniform, Truman said: "This is the most remarkable list of citations I have ever seen. For any one of these, this young man is entitlted to all the country has to offer. These ought to be worth a Medal of Honor—that's what I think about it."

On March 28, 1942, a few days before his 22nd birthday, Chilson was inducted into the Army. Records show that he was 5 feet 8 inches tall and weighed 150 pounds when he reported for duty at Fort Benjamin Harrison, Ind. Chilson completed basic infantry and amphibious training at Camp Livingston, La., and Camp Johnston, Fla. He then joined Company G, 179th Infantry Regiment, 45th Infantry Division.

On November 26, [1944,] the 179th Infantry Division was approaching Denshein, France. While attempting to cut the main road leading from the town, Chilson's platoon was suddenly halted by machine gun and rifle fire from a German roadblock. After directing his soldiers to lay down covering fire with a machine gun, Chilson moved forward—alone—as enemy bullets blanketed the area.

Taking advantage of darkness, Chilson outflanked the Germans. He crawled to within 60 feet of the roadblock, threw two hand grenades into the enemy position and then opened fire. When the firing stopped, the sergeant had killed three Germans and forced nine others to surrender. His attack allowed the company to cut the road and, as his subsequent citation for the Silver Star stated, "materially aided" in the capture of Denshein.

At about 2:30 that morning [March 26, 1945], Company G began its crossing of the Rhine [near Worms] in small boats. . . . Comnpany G had made it halfway across the river when the Germans, waiting to catch the Americans when they were most vulnerable, opened up with a barrage of mortar, rifle and machine gun fire. . . . Protected by the dark, the Americans made it across, but the 1st and 2nd platoons were immediately pinned down by enemy fire as soon as they reached the opposite shore. The lieutenant in charge of the second platoon was shot in the shoulder, side and leg, and was out of action. . . . Chilson took command of the platoon and quickly formed the disorganized and frightened GIs into a compact, efficient fighting force.

He then began leading Company G up the right bank of the river. They had only gone about 100 yards when the Germans began firing on them with automatic weapons from the top of the dike running along the bank of the Rhine. Chilson ordered his men to hold their position and began inching his way forward over the swampy, open ground and up onto the dike.

When he got within range of the German machine-gunners, Chilson saw a horse-drawn ammunition wagon. He quickly threw a white phosphorus grenade into the wagon, which set it ablaze and destroyed the ammunition it was carrying. Chilson then rushed along the dike and with his carbine killed the German machine-gunners by the light of the fire from the burning wagon.

Having destroyed the machine guns, Chilson ran back to his platoon and led them up to the dike and along the riverbank. At 4 a.m. the company was again halted by enemy machine guns. Two well-concealed German positions were firing onto the Americans. As before, Chilson ordered his men to remain in place and then crawled alone for 200 yards into the darkness. Well forward of his own men, the sergeant then used a radio to call for mortar and artillery fire onto the Germans, directing the fire by by sound and flash until the two machine gun positions had been destroyed as well as two 20mm cannons that had also begun to fire on the Americans.

Chilson led his men forward. By 9 a.m. they had reached a road junction where they were again stopped by enemy fire from four machine guns and well-aimed small arms. "It was impossible to move," company commander Captain Raymond E. Wantz remembered. "We called for artillery fire but couldn't get it." Company G then put out cloth recognition panels to mark its position for a hoped-for airstrike. This idea was quashed when the GIs realized that the panels would most likely not be spotted by friendly pilots. Finally, Wantz decided to use a bazooka against the Germans. He sent out a two-man team that fired nine rounds before both men were wounded—but none of the bazooka rounds detonated.

At this critical moment, Chilson volunteered to take two men and destroy the machine guns. After gathering eight white phosphorus and seven fragmentation grenades from his platoon—as well as 120 rounds of ammunition for his own carbine—Chilson had the rest of his men fire on the Germans while he led his companions up a water-filled ditch. When the trio was within 30 yards of the first enemy machine gun, Chilson told his two comrades to open up with their M1s. Then, rising up on one knee, Chilson hurled one white phosphorus and two high-explosive grenades at the enemy in rapid succession. As they exploded, he stood up and charged the Germans, killing three and forcing nine others to surrender.

Having silenced the first gun emplacement, Chilson then scrambled down the side of the dike and rushed some 65 yards to the second machine gun position, which the Germans had placed in a hollow tree stump. Reaching around the tree, he dropped a white phosphorus grenade into the stump—destroying the gun and killing two of its crew. The two surviving Germans were so stunned that they surrendered.

Not satisfied with his success thus far, Chilson then charged the two remaining German machine gun positions, throwing white phosphorus grenades as he advanced and yelling at the enemy troops to surrender. Thirty German troops were so amazed by what they saw coming at them that they dropped their guns and gave themselves up.

. . .

By the end of the day, Company G had carried out its orders—it had taken Gernsheim. Although it suffered 25 casualties, without tank support the company had killed, wounded or captured about 200 Germans and seized 13 machine guns and four 20mm cannons. What is most impressive is that much of that destruction had been wrought by just one man—Chilson. He alone was responsible for killed or wounding some 30 of the enemy and taking an additional 200 prisoner. For his heroism that day, Chilson received the Distinguished Service Cross, which is second only to the Medal of Honor.

The article includes descriptions of about a dozen more instances of Chilson either taking on the enemy alone (except, perhaps, for supporting small-arms fire) or leading parts of his platoon in the attack.

In all, Chilson was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross three times, the Silver Star twice, the Purple Heart twice, and the Legion of Merit (which was rarely awarded to enlisted men), as well as several other medals.

The caption to a photo showing Chilson shaking hands with Audie Murphy reads:

Chilson (left) greets Audie Murphy during a function at Fort Hood, Texas. While Chilson's heroics went unremembered by all but a few, Murphy's led to fame and a career as a Hollywood actor. Chilson remarked that when the two finally had a chance to discuss their wartime experiences, he was disappointed that Murphy just wanted to talk about his movie career.

It seems to me that there are a couple of factors why Chilson not only did not receive the Medal of Honor but is virtually unremembered—unlike Murphy, who was (and perhaps still is to a certain extent) almost a household name. Chilson reached only the rank of master sergeant even after reenlisting in November 1947 and remaining in uniform another 17 years, whereas Murphy was a second lieutenant at the time he pulled off the action which earned him the Medal of Honor. Murphy, unlike Chilson, was fairly handsome—some might say "boyishly" so—and thus was much more marketable.

45th Division website with detailed info about and photos of Chilson

* I find it sadly unsurprising (not least in contrast to Truman's opinion) that there is no Wikipedia article on Llewellyn Chilson, whereas there is a long, detailed, and rather well constructed article on Audie Murphy.

[silverstars]

Military decorations are like that; For one soldier who receives a medal and truly deserves it there are ten other guys equally deserving who receive lesser commendations or none at all. And as you mentioned, rank fits into it heavily no matter what anyone says. The Military seems to hate giving the CMH to an enlisted man who can still breathe.

I think the important thing to remember is that no matter how deserving Llewellyn Chilson is, that shouldn't lessen Audie Murphy's accomplishments any. Both men went through hell in their own way and one just happened to be more recognized for it. Just as I am sure there are many men who went through equal trials and received no recognition whatsoever.

[silverstars]

I had another randow thought at work today: will Graveyards be modeled as a terrain, and if so would it have its own terrain marker or would you just include graves as flavor objects?

[Battlefront.com]

I think we're going to go with them as Flavor Objects. It gives the designer more flexibility as to placement/orientation.

Steve

[sfhand]

I think we're going to go with them as Flavor Objects. It gives the designer more flexibility as to placement/orientation.

Steve

Steve,

I'm under the impression that flavor objects offer no cover, so, for me, a battle in a cemetary where the gravemarkers/crypts offer no cover seems rather pointless.

I would imagine that in reality a battle in a cemetary would probably highlight the only time one would be happy that the person in the ground had enough money to splurge on an extravagent grave marker.

I know it would take more time and effort to make cemetary tiles and you guys are the final word on those priorities, but since every cemetary I've seen has had it's graves layed out symetrically (including very old ones) I see little need to lay place each and every headstone from a scenario creating standpoint, in fact, as one who has dabbled with the map editor, I'd much rather have the tiles. That's not to say that I wouldn't also like tombstone flavor objects to fill in triangles created by diagonal fences/walls (although I don't know about the average size of a western European cemetary - maybe it's just some tombstones behind a church?).

The other option, not sure if it's been discussed already, is giving flavor objects the ability to provide cover. If I had to choose between cemetary tiles and flavor objects providing cover I'd take the latter everyday and twice on Sundays.

I'm pretty sure you've considered all of this already. I'm not sure where you stand in the decision making process on this so I figured I'd throw in my $.02.

And thanks for taking the time to read and consider this point of view.