Tank targeting mystery

[Bulletpoint]

So, I drive up a Panther to a tall hedgerow in order to kill a tank destroyer on the other side. The panther spots the TD, but only opens up with its hull machinegun (shooting at the exposed crew).

It doesn't fire its main gun. I check the targeting line; it's grey.

There are some low hedges and bushes between the panther and the TD, so I guess they interfere with the targeting. BUT how can it be that the hull MG can shoot, and the main gun cannot? Surely the main gun is located much higher, so it should be able to shoot over the bushes, whereas the hull MG should have its vision blocked?

I leave the Panther in position for a couple of turns. After the TD crew button up, the Panther stops firing. After a few turns, the TD spots the panther and fires at it. So there is LOF for the TD but not for the Panther.

How can this be?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Are there trees between them, not just bushes but full-sized trees? Also, you said the target line was grey. Were you able to Target the TD manually or did it say No Line of Sight?

Edited November 25, 2017 by Vanir Ausf B

[Erwin]

LOS in CM2 is often frustrating and becoming familiar with its idiosyncrasies is a challenge of its own.  The above issue is most often experienced with HMG's and direct fire guns (inf or AFV's).

My hope is that in CM3 there may be a routine that allows the AI to move the weapon the required few inches to attain LOS when the player eyeballing the situation sees no obstruction. 

[Bulletpoint]

10 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Are there trees between them, not just bushes but full-sized trees? Also, you said the target line was grey. Were you able to Target the TD manually or did it say No Line of Sight?

I checked for trees, because I thought maybe the hull gunner could draw LOS under treetop foliage that would block LOS for the main gun. But there were no trees (yes, I made sure to toggle trees ON  )

Target line was grey, and I was able to manually target the TD. However, no shots were fired.

 

[Bulletpoint]

Ok, after thinking about this some more, I think it must have to do with the tank's vision cone. Tanks get a restricted arc of vision when they drive up to bocage.

Maybe it's possible that the TD was just off the main gun's cone of vision, but that the hull MG, being placed further forward, would get a wider cone of vision through bocage, and thus being able to target the TD? Meanwhile, the TD, not being in bocage, would have 360 degrees of freedom to fire, and thus be able to target the Panther.

It just seemed like the TD was not that far off to the right. I've been playing this game for years, and it seems to me that I have been able to target before in those situations.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Bulletpoint

[MOS:96B2P]

8 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

<Snip> Maybe it's possible that the TD was just off the main gun's cone of vision, but that the hull MG, being placed further forward, would get a wider cone of vision through bocage, and thus being able to target the TD? Meanwhile, the TD, not being in bocage, would have 360 degrees of freedom to fire, and thus be able to target the Panther.  <Snip> 

Do you have a saved turn so you can reload it and move the Panther around a bit to test your theory?  This does sound frustrating.   

[AttorneyAtWar]

Why not take a screenshot? I mean how are we supposed to interpret that just from a vague description.

Although these situations are frustrating, but each crew member draws there own LOS, if the main gunners LOS is blocked by a leaf or something it only impacts him.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Raptorx7

[Vanir Ausf B]

11 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Ok, after thinking about this some more, I think it must have to do with the tank's vision cone. Tanks get a restricted arc of vision when they drive up to bocage.

Maybe it's possible that the TD was just off the main gun's cone of vision, but that the hull MG, being placed further forward, would get a wider cone of vision through bocage, and thus being able to target the TD? Meanwhile, the TD, not being in bocage, would have 360 degrees of freedom to fire, and thus be able to target the Panther.

It just seemed like the TD was not that far off to the right. I've been playing this game for years, and it seems to me that I have been able to target before in those situations.

Perhaps, but if the gunner does not have LOS I am surprised it let you Target the TD. If you still have my email send me the save game file. Once I know the map and location it won't be difficult to test if bocage is to blame.

[Bulletpoint]

13 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Perhaps, but if the gunner does not have LOS I am surprised it let you Target the TD. If you still have my email send me the save game file. Once I know the map and location it won't be difficult to test if bocage is to blame.

To be honest, I had a bit of a "Hitler reacts" moment that evening, so I quit the game without saving  

But since you offer to take a look at it, I will try to see if I can recreate the situation.

[MOS:96B2P]

4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

To be honest, I had a bit of a "Hitler reacts" moment that evening,

 I would like to see a save of that!!!! 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

FWIW I've found a 'Hunt' order to the vehicle's current location (ie: a move on the same action spot) sometimes helps with these issues, even more so with infantry.

9 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

To be honest, I had a bit of a "Hitler reacts" moment that evening, so I quit the game without saving  

That happens to me quite a lot too, but I'm trying to give it up these days so I can get some saves of these mad moments! 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Vanir Ausf B]

On 11/26/2017 at 1:42 AM, Bulletpoint said:

Maybe it's possible that the TD was just off the main gun's cone of vision, but that the hull MG, being placed further forward, would get a wider cone of vision through bocage, and thus being able to target the TD? Meanwhile, the TD, not being in bocage, would have 360 degrees of freedom to fire, and thus be able to target the Panther.

That may be it. I ran the saved game for a while until the Panther re-spotted the TD on the right, but still could not fire even when I Targeted manually. The TD never fired on the Panther either. Then I ran a pioneer squad up and blew a hole in the bocage directly in front of the Panther, which immediately opened up on the TD.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Vanir Ausf B

[Bulletpoint]

8 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

That may be it. I ran the saved game for a while until the Panther re-spotted the TD on the right, but still could not fire even when I Targeted manually. The TD never fired on the Panther either. Then I ran a pioneer squad up and blew a hole in the bocage directly in front of the Panther, which immediately opened up on the TD.

Thanks for taking a look at it. It just seems to me I have had tanks fire from similar positions many times in the past - both US and German tanks. Not sure what about this particular hedgerow setup that would make it different...

[JoMac]

29 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Thanks for taking a look at it. It just seems to me I have had tanks fire from similar positions many times in the past - both US and German tanks. Not sure what about this particular hedgerow setup that would make it different...

It's also that you may think your in the exact position (or the TD), but can be off by less then a meter (and as players can't tell), and that pixel difference can mean the difference of LOS/LOF...

This might be the same situation as a Vehicle a hundred meters deep in the woods, and think it's safe from outside LOS (or would be in RL), but the game mechanics was able to find a pixel LOS, and was able to get LOF for one shot.

[Erwin]

The reality is that getting down to ground level and "eyeballing" the situation often does not work.  One experiences this often in urban situations where one cannot target any part of an entire building when there are no obvious obstructions to LOS.

It's a similar situation to one's ability to check LOS to a target from any waypoint one makes on the map.  The problem is that when your unit arrives at that waypoint it often cannot get that same LOS.  One wonders why BF did all that programming work to allow LOS to be checked from every waypoint, when it often doesn't work that way. 

It's a good example of how an experienced player has to learn how to fight/play "the game system" as opposed to playing the game as if it were RL.  It's not a game breaker by any means.  One learns to work around it.  But, again, hopefully, something for BF to consider improving for CM3.

[akd]

It usually works that way, which makes it more useful than not.

[JoMac]

On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 10:26 AM, Erwin said:

It's a similar situation to one's ability to check LOS to a target from any waypoint one makes on the map.  The problem is that when your unit arrives at that waypoint it often cannot get that same LOS.  One wonders why BF did all that programming work to allow LOS to be checked from every waypoint, when it often doesn't work that way.

I only play WEGO against AI or Human Opponents, and have a 'House Rule' for players to only check LOS and  'Area-Fire' (no Direct Targeting allowed) at beginning of turn (and not at every way-point).

Thou, I'm debating on changing that so a Player is allowed to 'Area-Fire' at Beginning of Turn, and at one additional way-point (of course allowing to check LOS of that way-point ahead of time).

[Mord]

11 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

I only play WEGO against AI or Human Opponents,

What's the other option? LOL.

 

Mord.

[JoMac]

True...I could be playing that, so called, Real-Time Option...The thought of that, just Mortifies me

[Mord]

LOL. No. I was making a joke. You said you only play WEGO against the AI or Humans. You needed a comma in there. Kinda like; "Time to eat uncle Bill!" As opposed to "Time to eat, uncle Bill."

 

Mord.

[c3k]

There's a great grammar book titled, "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves." 

[Mord]

I may put that on my Christmas list. I could use it.

 

Mord.

[Badger73]

  

[Michael Emrys]

A long time member of this particular pantheon: "What's that in the road, a head?"

Michael