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Kharkov Map Sneak Peak


Macisle

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6 hours ago, Macisle said:

I've lowered building heights in some places to reduce the modern look. There are a ton of balconies on the map, but only a tiny number of them are actually functional. Almost all are cosmetic -- the door removed to prevent troops from becoming more vulnerable by going out on the balcony.

Okay so how did you do that?  Trying to duplicate but I can't seem to get rid of the door.

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36 minutes ago, sburke said:

Okay so how did you do that?  Trying to duplicate but I can't seem to get rid of the door.

Put in your balconies first (Ctl + Shift). Be sure to finalize the desired style and number of balconies on a given side before adjusting the windows. Then use the command to adjust all levels on the same side at once (Clt + Alt) to get the windows-only effect. Then, adjust the non-balcony levels individually to get what you want in the way of doors and/or differing window patterns. You can't individually adjust the balcony level configurations and maintain the all-window effect, though. If you try it, you'll get a door there and have to start the process over again to remove it.

Edited by Macisle
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2 minutes ago, sburke said:

Swwwwweeeeetttt  I like it.  Gonna have to go back and edit a few of my favorite maps.

Yeah, I beat my head against the Engine for a long time on that one. Then, I read the relevant manual section again, had a lightbulb appear over my head, tried it and voila! Since discovering it, I'm pretty sure I've seen others occasionally post the trick when it comes up in discussions.

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8 hours ago, Macisle said:

Put in your balconies first (Ctl + Shift). Be sure to finalize the desired style and number of balconies on a given side before adjusting the windows. Then use the command to adjust all levels on the same side at once (Clt + Alt) to get the windows-only effect. Then, adjust the non-balcony levels individually to get what you want in the way of doors and/or differing window patterns. You can't individually adjust the balcony level configurations and maintain the all-window effect, though. If you try it, you'll get a door there and have to start the process over again to remove it.

+1  Thanks for sharing that tip.  @Sgt.Squarehead did you see this? 

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15 hours ago, Macisle said:

There are a ton of balconies on the map, but only a tiny number of them are actually functional. Almost all are cosmetic -- the door removed to prevent troops from becoming more vulnerable by going out on the balcony.

Just watch for guys getting automatically placed or players placing men on those balconies. Because then they become Hotel California balconies.

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27 minutes ago, IanL said:

Just watch for guys getting automatically placed or players placing men on those balconies. Because then they become Hotel California balconies.

That's interesting. I've never seen them get stuck, but I don't think I've ever had troops there at start. -Will have to test that out and maybe keep in mind to add a note to scenario briefings warning players not to place troops there during setup. Thanks for the warning!

Edited by Macisle
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25 minutes ago, IanL said:

Just watch for guys getting automatically placed or players placing men on those balconies. Because then they become Hotel California balconies.

Yepp...might be worth mentioning in the designer notes or in an attached PDF file or maybe in the release annoncement and if possible as a mapdescription at the scenariodepot or wherever you chose to upload it to.

It will be no problem to handle this if the players/designers are aware of it...

 

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Setup zones for the AI might need to be restricted to - the first floor - to avoid the chans of the AI deploying troops on those balconies. I don't know if the AI ever deploys troops on balconies though.

The option being to manually place the AI troops at desired locations (whitout setup zones). I usually find that this works better. Might ruin some of the randomness/fog of war but i Think this is a very minor issiue. Better to get the troops deployed where you like them (Place them you self).

 

 

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Yeah, I didn't type it, but was mentally applying avoiding balconies to AI setups as well.

Speaking of which, when testing out my map sections with AI troopers, I've started using a standard technique of having the AI start hidden on the lowest level setting, to be triggered to move to higher ones when my troops approach. That way, I can blast the crap out of the area with heavy arty and get a feel for how well the troops are being protected. The answer is...pretty well!

Actually, that's one thing that BF may need to tweak at some point. Modular buildings seem to have significantly more staying power than independent ones vs. HE. A direct fire round will cause casualties in the same way in both modular and independent, but in terms of building level and/or single side wall destruction, it seems like modular buildings may be a bit too tough at the moment. 

Once I get to the playtesting stage with folks from the community, I'd like to get their feedback on it. I haven't done any systematic testing.

I'm planning to give players as much heavy arty as I can realistically give them, as the map can absorb so much and offers so much protection. That way, they can use some of the tools BF has given than don't often get used (because they don't fit most scenarios) and because the resulting "terra-forming" of the map has the potential to create unique tactical situations each play.

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14 hours ago, Macisle said:

That's interesting. I've never seen them get stuck, but I don't think I've ever had troops there at start. -Will have to test that out and maybe keep in mind to add a note to scenario briefings warning players not to place troops there during setup. Thanks for the warning!

Idea...

1) Deploy the forces on the ground floors

2) Select troops you wish to occupy second stories and group them together. (Assuming HMG's etc to provide overwatch).

3) Set up an AI order to move as soon as the battle starts. The order is for this group is three fold; a) to 'move' to the same action squares, 2) deploy on top floors, and 3) face towards the enemy.

4) Let them sit there and shoot for the rest of the fight/set engagement ranges etc as per normal. Just ensure the buildings have windows facing the appropiate direction.

That way they will move upstairs but will have no door to move through to occupy the balcony. Can't help players manually positioning forces on balconiesduring deployment.

 

The problem is the AI may move fireteams around in an odd manner initially to occupy action squares away from where they are initially deployed (rather than just climing the stairs in the same building). Shouldn't too much a problem if the order is given arly enough so this 'cheat' won't disrput the flow of the battle with the player. Multiple AI groups could be assigned in this manner for different areas of the map to ensure the troops don't wander off too much - but that does reduce the number of AI groups available overall.

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2 hours ago, Ithikial_AU said:

Idea...

1) Deploy the forces on the ground floors

2) Select troops you wish to occupy second stories and group them together. (Assuming HMG's etc to provide overwatch).

3) Set up an AI order to move as soon as the battle starts. The order is for this group is three fold; a) to 'move' to the same action squares, 2) deploy on top floors, and 3) face towards the enemy.

4) Let them sit there and shoot for the rest of the fight/set engagement ranges etc as per normal. Just ensure the buildings have windows facing the appropiate direction.

That way they will move upstairs but will have no door to move through to occupy the balcony. Can't help players manually positioning forces on balconiesduring deployment.

 

The problem is the AI may move fireteams around in an odd manner initially to occupy action squares away from where they are initially deployed (rather than just climing the stairs in the same building). Shouldn't too much a problem if the order is given arly enough so this 'cheat' won't disrput the flow of the battle with the player. Multiple AI groups could be assigned in this manner for different areas of the map to ensure the troops don't wander off too much - but that does reduce the number of AI groups available overall.

Thanks for the response. That sounds similar to what I've been doing (mentioned in post just above yours).

Another thing I've been doing is adding "blank" move orders to upper levels periodically (multiple instances of the order per group, like say, every 10-30 min) to make AI troopers that have engaged and been driven to lower levels go back up to engage again from higher levels. That keeps the player guessing! It's been so long since I did testing (before my summer break) that I can't remember if I had any significant issues with AI troopers changing buildings (and thus perhaps exposing themselves in open ground). I think the blank move (no painted squares, so it copies over the previous painted moves from the most recent order that had them) works pretty well, IIRC.

The map has a huge number of "faux basements" created by having no windows on the bottom floor. That allows the defender to "skulk" down away from enemy fire and then return later. (also adds a lot of protection from arty). An AI defender driven to lower levels that lacks orders to get him back up can still use the faux basements to ambush the player should he stumble on them.

I had big fun and a very realistic grind digging a number of those units out in my last playtesting in the center area of the map. Did my A-game and still took a decent number of casualties. One time, I had a faux basement enemy squad leader ambush one of my squads (3 dead) and proceed to run through 3 connected building sections, disappearing, reappearing in an unexpected place and then ambush a totally different squad, killing another 2 guys before a third team finally took him out as he ran outside. -One of those epic CM moments that seems like a movie or real story of heroic deeds from the war.

Occasionally, the rout bug causes problems, but the map is so dense, with so many connected building locations, that they often survive and even find their way to a decent or even better position.  

 

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6 hours ago, Macisle said:

Thanks for the response. That sounds similar to what I've been doing (mentioned in post just above yours).

Another thing I've been doing is adding "blank" move orders to upper levels periodically (multiple instances of the order per group, like say, every 10-30 min) to make AI troopers that have engaged and been driven to lower levels go back up to engage again from higher levels. That keeps the player guessing! It's been so long since I did testing (before my summer break) that I can't remember if I had any significant issues with AI troopers changing buildings (and thus perhaps exposing themselves in open ground). I think the blank move (no painted squares, so it copies over the previous painted moves from the most recent order that had them) works pretty well, IIRC.

 

6 hours ago, Macisle said:

The map has a huge number of "faux basements" created by having no windows on the bottom floor. That allows the defender to "skulk" down away from enemy fire and then return later. (also adds a lot of protection from arty). An AI defender driven to lower levels that lacks orders to get him back up can still use the faux basements to ambush the player should he stumble on them.

Cool idea.

 

6 hours ago, Macisle said:

I had big fun and a very realistic grind digging a number of those units out in my last playtesting in the center area of the map. Did my A-game and still took a decent number of casualties. One time, I had a faux basement enemy squad leader ambush one of my squads (3 dead) and proceed to run through 3 connected building sections, disappearing, reappearing in an unexpected place and then ambush a totally different squad, killing another 2 guys before a third team finally took him out as he ran outside. -One of those epic CM moments that seems like a movie or real story of heroic deeds from the war.

Awesome.

 

6 hours ago, Macisle said:

Occasionally, the rout bug causes problems, but the map is so dense, with so many connected building locations, that they often survive and even find their way to a decent or even better position. 

This might be a context where pulling back quickly is a better way to operate.

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Macisle,  what kind of specs are you running on your machine ? Do you think something like this will be possible...performace-vise ?  On atleast 'above average' computers...

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:13 PM, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Maybe someone will use this map for something like what MOS:96B2P so aptly pioneered here

That way, the entire map could stay in play for hours.

Or have your testing indicated that using the entire map at once is out of the question...?

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, RepsolCBR said:

Macisle,  what kind of specs are you running on your machine ? Do you think something like this will be possible...performace-vise ?  On atleast 'above average' computers...

Or have your testing indicated that using the entire map at once is out of the question...?

 

 

 

Wow -- that's a cool idea! These days, I only have just enough time to chip away at the map and monitor this thread. I can't keep up with the larger forum and hadn't seen that. Extremely cool and some great creative thinking there.

I'm pretty sure using the whole map for something like that is out, even for the most powerful rigs. In the early days of the project, I did a first pass round the map with a full skeleton of low-level buildings -- just to see how the frames went (which is why some sections looked worked, but will be need to be redone from scratch). Testing the full map with only the low-level building skeleton, I put one battalion of infantry and a few platoons of tanks for each side and it was unplayable on the lowest settings. We're talking 5 minutes to process a turn and an unusable frame rate (literally a slide show). The good news is that it appears you can use a decent-sized slice and give players a beefy amount of troops, while still staying in the Improved/Balanced area of settings.

I've been very impressed with how optimized the Editor 3D Preview is. I'm still able to use Improved (models that is, everything else maxed) for working on the master and off the top of my head, I'd say that 2/3 of the buildings are complete at this point (windows, doors and all). My rig is old: an i7 950 at 3.07, 6 GB of memory and a 2GB GTX 550 Ti.

Speaking of the grid idea, I'm currently debating on whether to use traditional terrain objectives (meaning a handful of key terrain areas) or divide up each slice into a grid with values for each block and have the players duke it out to see who ends up with the best balance of area control and casualty points. With a grid, there may be more opportunity for back and forth and dynamic use of the map.

The way things are looking, the whole map would require more than 4 hours to play anyway. I mean...like maybe 16+  if the players had beefy force levels.

So, my current thinking on scenarios (4-8 of which will make up the H2H campaign) is to find the best balance of size for maneuver, framerate and application to a 4-hour format. Then build up the individual battles into 3-4 phases that are the equivalent of single scenarios of about an hour each. The final battle will start with a mega Axis counterattack, blending into the final Soviet push (in other words, the Axis tries to take back as much space as it can before the Soviets receive massive reinforcements and the tables turn).  For the earlier battles, the typical pattern will be for the Soviets to be on the attack, but with one of the phases giving the Axis enough force for a local counterattack. Of course, small local counterattacks may be possible at any time, depending on how the battle goes. The map really craves high unit density. So, I'll be looking to give people as many troops as a high level of realism (and framerates!) will allow.

At this point, I don't think I'm going to attempt "logistical exits" as attrition is likely going to be high enough to keep the framerates down and slice performance so far is better than expected (don't know for sure until we get to the player testing phase, of course). Originally, I was planning to deliver extra ammo sometimes, but keeping standard ammo levels may be a good way to encourage players to maintain the phase structure. Basically, the missions will assume that successful troops assigned to earlier phases will take up defensive positions on their taken objectives. In other words, the player will only use them for later objectives if he is having trouble. The speed at which Soviets burn through their ammo will help support the phase structure as well. Of course, depending on player feedback, I can always add ammo.

So, assuming a grid pattern with each block having a point value,  the mission briefing will show say, a map with expected lines of advance and which troops are expected to push to which lines. Troops that have taken their objectives can sit on them and defend, while fresh troops advance. Rinse and repeat.

Those are just current ideas. Nothing is set in stone, as the missions will come out of the map, rather than the map being made to support concrete mission ideas.

Edited by Macisle
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4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Really looking forward to seeing the finished map.....Truly epic stuff, I hope in future some kind soul might convert it to CM:BS too, it has so much potential.  B)

Thanks!

I hope CMBS fans get to use it there, too. It would be very interesting to see how the Red vs. Blue dynamic works on this map.

Yeah, I'm looking WAY forward to finishing this sucker up and getting it out there. Still tons to do, though. The good news is that there is a light in the tunnel on getting enough finished to cut some slices and get community playtesting going on those areas.

Here's a more detailed status update. Red areas indicate that I need to essentially start from scatch (cut the skeleton and build back up). Non-red areas are done except for final tweaking of elevations, foliage and addition of flavor objects (will probably keep those to a minimum to save on frames). Every modular building on the map (which is nearly all) is being given individual treatment for window and door layout, skin and window style. If it's in a non-red area, its done!

43509070814_cba3863748_b.jpg

 

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7 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Even from that distant view it has a very realistic feel.

How much elevation change have you managed to include?  It's always tricky in urban settings, caused me to grind to a halt on a couple of CM:SF projects.

Here's the elevation overlay I made using Photoshop. I constructed it with (a boatload of) screenshots using the transparency overlay technique via Google Earth (larger version here). So, it's currently theoretically exact.

30608084764_0ce5c15551.jpg

However, as you would expect, things get a little goofy when the actual map elements are added. So, I'm going to go back and massage everything to make it natural from the ground view, as it were. I'd rather have it look right from the soldier's point of view than from the Magic Bus in Space. To be honest, elevations are a weak area and I've been kicking the can down the road as long as I can. I don't see any big problems so far, though. Just little tweaks needed here and there. But, it will be time intensive to tackle them.

The realistic feel is, I think, a natural outgrowth of trying to recreate what I'm seeing in Google Street. When I get to the end of a block, I see that there are little neat things that I would have never thought of on my own. For example, I'm more or less following the door patterns in real life. Often, that means a street door might lead to a second modular extension, which leads to a door out to another area out of LOS of the original entry street. That's going to make for some cool situations.

 

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I am entirely looking forward to this for CMBS now, and CMRT later (Waiting for BERLIN!!!). I unfortunately forgot how to work the map translator tool.. Also I hope to be able to get the master map. I enjoy excruciatingly slow FPS on unfairly gigantic scales in CMBS. 

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@Macisle - I wouldn't get too hung up on the elevations. In simple terms your map from bottom LH corner to top RH corner is low ground. The bottom RH corner is a bit higher and the top LH corner is the highest ground.

I would just use that rough rule of thumb to get your elevations done. As you know, elevations can really screw up your lovingly placed buildings and that will be the thing that players will scrutinise when they look at the map.

I've yet to see anybody come onto a thread like this and go 'that church should be sat on at 127 metres but your cr@ppy map has it at 102 metres you @sshole'. The more likely criticism will be 'the church looks odd because the steeple is on a different elevation to the main building'. Who apart from people like us after all goes into the scenario editor 😉.

I take pride in my maps but have never really paid too much attention to exactly modelling elevation mainly because I couldn't deal with all of that elevation overlay faffery. I've always aimed to get the right feel for the ground and the extent of my attention to detail would be to trace contours from whatever military map I am using and from there let the terrain auto adjust. In areas where those elevations made stuff look a bit wonky I'd make small change and leave it at that. I've never had any complaints.

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