Scenario editing using same AI group for reinforcements

[nightops]

Frustrating situation so I'll ask the experts. Can you assign the same AI group to different reinforcement groups? At the moment what is happening is I'm trying to assign R2 and R3 to AI group 13 but when I do so those units won't move once they spawn. The reason for this is the lack of AI groups - we definitely need more than 16. Any help/advice appreciated. I hope I posted this in the right place.

[Combatintman]

AFAIK this shouldn't be a problem. The non-movement issue may be linked to the timing of orders you have set for AI Group 13.  If group R2 arrives at 15 minutes and group R3 arrives at 30 minutes but the first order you have for AI Group 13 is timed at 5 minutes then it is unlikely that the later arriving elements (eg R2 and R3) will move.

While I agree that it would be nice to have more than 16 AI Groups, it is generally possible to craft a workable AI plan with those 16 AI Groups - remember the AI just needs to present a challenge to the player and appear credible.  Try doing it in CMSF which only has 8 available groups .

[ASL Veteran]

An AI group will not move unless all members of that group are on map.  So if AI group 1 has some troops begin on map and others entering as reinforcements, then no members of AI group 1 will move until all the members of AI group 1 have entered the map as reinforcements.  Once all members of group 1 have arrived then the group will begin to carry out the group orders that you have assigned.  So essentially it is currently impossible to have AI movement orders with groups that are split between on map elements and reinforcements, unless your movement plan is set to begin after all the members of that AI group have arrived on map.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

You think 16 AI groups is too few.....Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! 

I'd kill for 16. 

ASL Veteran is correct. 

[nightops]

On 3/19/2017 at 10:20 PM, Combatintman said:

AFAIK this shouldn't be a problem. The non-movement issue may be linked to the timing of orders you have set for AI Group 13.  If group R2 arrives at 15 minutes and group R3 arrives at 30 minutes but the first order you have for AI Group 13 is timed at 5 minutes then it is unlikely that the later arriving elements (eg R2 and R3) will move.

While I agree that it would be nice to have more than 16 AI Groups, it is generally possible to craft a workable AI plan with those 16 AI Groups - remember the AI just needs to present a challenge to the player and appear credible.  Try doing it in CMSF which only has 8 available groups .

 

 

I've set the departure for 00.00 on both clocks so would expect they would leave immediately with no waiting for timed execution. Interesting that in another scenario the units do move even though they spawned about 20 minutes apart. the only difference I can see is the latter situation involves a trigger on map.

It is possible to craft a workable AI plan but more AI slots gives you more flexibility and more randomness in the scenario. I'm glad to see the AI orders have been boosted from 16 to 32.

Edited March 21, 2017 by nightops

[nightops]

On 3/19/2017 at 11:01 PM, ASL Veteran said:

An AI group will not move unless all members of that group are on map.  So if AI group 1 has some troops begin on map and others entering as reinforcements, then no members of AI group 1 will move until all the members of AI group 1 have entered the map as reinforcements.  Once all members of group 1 have arrived then the group will begin to carry out the group orders that you have assigned.  So essentially it is currently impossible to have AI movement orders with groups that are split between on map elements and reinforcements, unless your movement plan is set to begin after all the members of that AI group have arrived on map.

 

As I was saying to Combatintman that's strangely not the behaviour I see in another scenario. The units not only don't wait for the reinforcements in their AI group but move as soon as they spawn. Then when the second part of the group arrives they also move (more strangely they don't follow the preset order plan directly but simply go to where the first group already is on the map). I'm not sure then what the variable is and why in some scenarios AI grouped units move and in others they don't.

[nightops]

On 3/20/2017 at 5:55 AM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

You think 16 AI groups is too few.....Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! 

I'd kill for 16. 

ASL Veteran is correct. 

 

Nothing wrong with asking. The more complex the AI the more complex and realistic the scenarios and gameplay can be.

It would also be nice if the tac AI could break off the execution of an order in progress when it contacts enemy units. ATM it rarely fully engages those enemy units instead simply plowing on like they don't exist.

[Combatintman]

I'd be careful for what you wish for. The more groups you have, the better your recordkeeping needs to be and the better and longer your testing becomes. The net result is that you'll struggle to kick the scenario out of the door if you try to be overly clever or complex about it.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Triggers.....I'd kill for those too. 

[ASL Veteran]

I haven't tested triggers with reinforcements so it's possible that triggers will override the 'normal' behavior of not moving until the entire group is on map.  I've personally tried having a single AI group split into an on map group and a reinforcement group so I know that, at least used to be, the expected behavior.  It has been a while since I've done anything like that though since - well once I see something doesn't work then I don't typically keep trying to do it.

[nightops]

37 minutes ago, ASL Veteran said:

I haven't tested triggers with reinforcements so it's possible that triggers will override the 'normal' behavior of not moving until the entire group is on map.  I've personally tried having a single AI group split into an on map group and a reinforcement group so I know that, at least used to be, the expected behavior.  It has been a while since I've done anything like that though since - well once I see something doesn't work then I don't typically keep trying to do it.

 

Sure, but this is all more trial and error than getting anything from the manual and I just noted that behaviour looking at this other scenario.

[Macisle]

I've been working on a scenario for CMRT for awhile where the major bottleneck is trying to fit the AI's force under 16 groups. Having 32+ would be wonderful and is my top choice by a mile for post 4.0 Editor Upgrade features. Once you hit a certain level of comfort, managing more than 16 Groups isn't much of a problem as long as you make notes (renaming formations also helps a lot in keeping track of things).

I've done a vast amount of experimentation to try and get around the 16 Group limit (most recent dead end was using Exit zones for temporary Groups to exit and be replaced, but the casualty point system killed that. Aside from the points problem, it worked very well).

A technique I'm using that does work is one I call "Snowballing." That is where I use reinforcements to add units to an existing Group over time. So, for example, you start off with a platoon of ACs to simulate recon. Then add a platoon of tanks to the same Group for more firepower. Then later, add a platoon of infantry for a combined arms Group that will take territory.

The key is that the first movement Order you want for the reinforcements to use after they enter must not start until after they are on the map. So, the previous Order must not exit until the reinforcements are already on the map. For example, if the reinforcements enter on turn 5 (don't use variable times for this), make sure that the Order you want them to join in on doesn't begin until minute 6. In other words, have the previous Order exit on 6.

It can take some practice to juggle the locations and Order times, but it does work.

As a rule, I try to keep armor and infantry in separate Groups, but this technique can really help when the 16 Group limit has you in a bind, or you want to throw a curveball.

Edit: Here is a CMFB TEST FILE. Play under scenario author test as the Americans. Just keep advancing the turns. Reinforcements show up at 5 minute intervals to join the Group and advance a minute later.

Here is a CMRT TEST FILE showing the technique. Play under scenario author test as the Germans.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Macisle

[nightops]

On 3/22/2017 at 0:24 PM, Macisle said:

I've been working on a scenario for CMRT for awhile where the major bottleneck is trying to fit the AI's force under 16 groups. Having 32+ would be wonderful and is my top choice by a mile for post 4.0 Editor Upgrade features. Once you hit a certain level of comfort, managing more than 16 Groups isn't much of a problem as long as you make notes (renaming formations also helps a lot in keeping track of things).

I've done a vast amount of experimentation to try and get around the 16 Group limit (most recent dead end was using Exit zones for temporary Groups to exit and be replaced, but the casualty point system killed that. Aside from the points problem, it worked very well).

A technique I'm using that does work is one I call "Snowballing." That is where I use reinforcements to add units to an existing Group over time. So, for example, you start off with a platoon of ACs to simulate recon. Then add a platoon of tanks to the same Group for more firepower. Then later, add a platoon of infantry for a combined arms Group that will take territory.

The key is that the first movement Order you want for the reinforcements to use after they enter must not start until after they are on the map. So, the previous Order must not exit until the reinforcements are already on the map. For example, if the reinforcements enter on turn 5 (don't use variable times for this), make sure that the Order you want them to join in on doesn't begin until minute 6. In other words, have the previous Order exit on 6.

It can take some practice to juggle the locations and Order times, but it does work.

As a rule, I try to keep armor and infantry in separate Groups, but this technique can really help when the 16 Group limit has you in a bind, or you want to throw a curveball.

Edit: Here is a CMFB TEST FILE. Play under scenario author test as the Americans. Just keep advancing the turns. Reinforcements show up at 5 minute intervals to join the Group and advance a minute later.

Here is a CMRT TEST FILE showing the technique. Play under scenario author test as the Germans.

4

Thanks for this.

Even if they pushed the AI cap to 24 that would be a big step and a big help.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On ‎22‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 1:24 AM, Macisle said:

A technique I'm using that does work is one I call "Snowballing." That is where I use reinforcements to add units to an existing Group over time. So, for example, you start off with a platoon of ACs to simulate recon. Then add a platoon of tanks to the same Group for more firepower. Then later, add a platoon of infantry for a combined arms Group that will take territory.

The key is that the first movement Order you want for the reinforcements to use after they enter must not start until after they are on the map. So, the previous Order must not exit until the reinforcements are already on the map. For example, if the reinforcements enter on turn 5 (don't use variable times for this), make sure that the Order you want them to join in on doesn't begin until minute 6. In other words, have the previous Order exit on 6.

It can take some practice to juggle the locations and Order times, but it does work.

Clever stuff.....I'm going to try that in CM:A & CM:SF where it really could make a huge difference! 

Kudos for a top-tip.....Just hoping it all works OK on the older engine.  If it does I can put a stream of VBIEDs on the same AI group and have them attack singly in sequence, or all together in different AI plans! 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Macisle]

Thanks for the thanks, guys.

Good luck with your work!

[George MC]

3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Clever stuff.....I'm going to try that in CM:A & CM:SF where it really could make a huge difference! 

Kudos for a top-tip.....Just hoping it all works OK on the older engine.  If it does I can put a stream of VBIEDs on the same AI group and have them attack singly in sequence, or all together in different AI plans! 

It works in CMSF - I've used this technique in several CMSF scenarios when we had even less AI Groups, namely 8 and tried to make large scenarios with multiple large groups - just watch the timings between groups arriving and the AI Plan orders etc.

[Glubokii Boy]

On March 21, 2017 at 0:53 PM, Combatintman said:

I'd be careful for what you wish for. The more groups you have, the better your recordkeeping needs to be and the better and longer your testing becomes. The net result is that you'll struggle to kick the scenario out of the door if you try to be overly clever or complex about it.

I do not agree with this at all. Having more AI groups willl give the designer a far greater chans of having the AI do what he intend them to do right of the bat..Simply because of the reason that having more AI groups avaliable will give the designer the chans to issue less complicated orders to each individual AI group wich the AI in turn will be better suited to handle. Resulting in far less tweaking of the AI plans and therefore less playtesting needed to get the over all plan to work as intended. When designing player attack scenarios the lack of additional AI groups may not be all that apperent but when trying to design a AI attack scenario it most certanly is a noteable limitation imo.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

16 hours ago, George MC said:

It works in CMSF - I've used this technique in several CMSF scenarios when we had even less AI Groups, namely 8 and tried to make large scenarios with multiple large groups - just watch the timings between groups arriving and the AI Plan orders etc.

Thanks for that George, saved me some testing time.....I played another of your scenarios yesterday as it goes, now I shall have a look in the editor and see how you achieved it. 

[Ithikial_AU]

On 25/03/2017 at 7:36 PM, RepsolCBR said:

I do not agree with this at all. Having more AI groups willl give the designer a far greater chans of having the AI do what he intend them to do right of the bat..Simply because of the reason that having more AI groups avaliable will give the designer the chans to issue less complicated orders to each individual AI group wich the AI in turn will be better suited to handle. Resulting in far less tweaking of the AI plans and therefore less playtesting needed to get the over all plan to work as intended. When designing player attack scenarios the lack of additional AI groups may not be all that apperent but when trying to design a AI attack scenario it most certanly is a noteable limitation imo.

More AI groups are better but what would be a nice editor tweak is the ability to rename groups and plans inside the editor itself. For instance I can rename the group to "A Company, 1st Platoon" so I know just from looking at the screen what is what. Would cut down on paper clutter on my desk. I'm guessing UI limitations are a factor preventing that from occuring.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

+1 to being able to rename groups/plans.

[Glubokii Boy]

2 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

+1 to being able to rename groups/plans.

Yes...Good suggestiom !

[Sgt.Squarehead]

+ another. 

The ability to copy/paste AI group plans between AI master plans would be a blessing, as would the ability to just copy/paste text.

[Pete Wenman]

13 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The ability to copy/paste AI group plans between AI master plans would be a blessing

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are meaning this is already in, and has been for a while

 

To copy a Plan, select the Plan that you desire to be copied, and press CTRL-C to copy it. Nothing will happen visually, but the plan has been copied. Next, select another Plan that you wish to overwrite, and press CTRL-V. A window asking for confirmation will appear. Select OK to copy the Plan. Copying Plans is very useful when you want to just use variations of a single Plan, without having to
tediously recreate all of the waypoints for the AI Groups.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That's great news and something that I must have completely missed (maybe because I've mostly been in the CMx2 editor with CM:A & CM:SF)!  

Can you copy & paste text too?  I usually rename units etc. and the ability to copy & paste text or just use the cursor keys would be a huge time-saver.