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Updating Shock Force

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On 1/4/2017 at 3:17 PM, IanL said:

What @sburke said is totally correct. But come on this is basic logic stuff :) . CMSF is a pretty big family with multiple modules and some unique features (spys, IEDs etc.). One huge issue is going to be simple compatibility of all the user content that has been created (just getting the actual files that exist to load correctly). Then there is the whole how much effort do you expend to ensure that the older scenarios play well. The list of work just piles up as far as the eye can see - just to get what they already created working well and playable. Then people ask "can we have x, y and z new stuff". It's all good. All good ideas. All very tempting. How much work is there to do again? I think we can all do that math and come to the same conclusion - while no one but Steve knows for sure: "don't hold your breath for a bunch of new things - cause you might die".

:D

Well we are all gonna die... but CMSF V4.0 would give us a BIG smile before we do :D

I am sure CMSF fans have a long list of "x, y and z new stuff" but CMSF V4.0 alone will be a HUGE improvement in terms of game play features alone. Will feel all shiny new with the engine change for sure.

2 hours ago, sburke said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but an updated Shock Force is the title I am most looking forward to in BF's repertoire.

CMSF is up near the top of my list but CMBS is really close as well.

Buzz

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4 minutes ago, rocketman said:

I'm really keen on a CMSF v 4. Was almost going to buy the existing big bundle but I'll wait until it gets updated. Then I'll buy it on day one for sure.

No idea when CMSF v 4 will arrive. I can say when I purchased the CMSF Mac Big Bundle (on day one it came out:)) I was kind of blown away at how having all the modules in the CMSF Big Bundle made the game shine like the gem it is?. Adding all the great 'Golden Scenarios" from many years of designers work and I have yet to play everything CMSF Big Bundle has to offer... still a great game.

Buzz

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CMSF v 4 would be awesome, I'm sure we all agree. But rocketman, if you wait for it to release instead of buying the big bundle now, I'm guessing you're going to be waiting quite a while. Steve said he predicted it will happen, but no firm idea of when. In which case it's probably at least a year away or more. Unless it is the "ambitious" next release from BF that's rumoured. :)

In any case I had to wait for years for an OSX version of it, but it did come, and it was worth the wait. And there are still CMSF youtube vids being made, it's still very much alive.

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We seem to be getting a momentum here guys. Is it ripe time to start getting a list together - as in wish list - that we d like to see in CMSFII?

what is also amazing - is the community :) who keeps this not only alive / but kicking ass 

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I wouldn't get carried away with wish lists - as others have said - just porting current CMSF content to the new engine is a big enough job - consider this ...

Rivers, bridges and fords and coding each individual vehicle attribute to enable them to either cross fords or bridges depending on their weight classification.

Modular and standalone buildings.

Railways.

Additional flavour objects.

Tweaking all of the squad type behaviours and attributes so that they can be split into anti-tank, scout etc teams and behave IAW the updated AI.

How to implement fortifications - will they be changed or will the trench terrain type remain?  However it is implemented, all of the existing content with that terrain type will require updating.

Deciding whether to allow air defence platforms to engage aircraft/helos and then implementing it.

Updating all six campaigns.

Updating all existing bundled scenarios - and I would imagine that the figure here would be in the 80-100 ballpark.

Updating all of the QB maps.

Updating the graphics for all in-game models/units.

The above isn't a full list and bolded items are what I think will be major jobs - I think people underestimate the amount of work and headaches involved with this particularly TO&E related tasks. Dream away by all means but I think we all need to manage expectations and be prepared to be happy (and I know I will be) if what is delivered is existing content to new engine standard.

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35 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

<Snip> be prepared to be happy (and I know I will be) if what is delivered is existing content to new engine standard.

THIS!!!  This is the first huge step.  After CMSF is updated to the 4.0 standard it can then more easily be kept at the same engine level as the other CM games.  So when the others go to Engine 5.0 it won't be such a big job to also bring CMSF up to 5.0 from hopefully 4.0.     

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HI borg, It is rather 'mature' now :) considering all the advances in CM since then but here is the link to an older wish list.

CM: Shock Force 2 Wish List - Started by Buzz, March 8, 2013

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/107839-cm-shock-force-2-wish-list/#comment-1415773

I agree... the CM community is amazing? As Combatintman and others have noted...  when CMSF V4.0 arrives with original content at the new engine level of play there will be much rejoicing and a renewed interest in building / reworking the New CMSF.

Buzz

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4 hours ago, Buzz said:

HI borg, It is rather 'mature' now :) considering all the advances in CM since then but here is the link to an older wish list.

CM: Shock Force 2 Wish List - Started by Buzz, March 8, 2013

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/107839-cm-shock-force-2-wish-list/#comment-1415773

I agree... the CM community is amazing? As Combatintman and others have noted...  when CMSF V4.0 arrives with original content at the new engine level of play there will be much rejoicing and a renewed interest in building / reworking the New CMSF.

Buzz

And wow ! A whooping 16 page community forum topic already in that link. Thanks man. I'll read through it. I was intrigued to see one suggesting a more realistic room clearing assault.. that's nice. 

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16 hours ago, sburke said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but an updated Shock Force is the title I am most looking forward to in BF's repertoire.

Im with you.. CMSF at 4.0 would be a dream. Id pay full game prise for this.

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I hope we don't have to bribe our way into Syria or Astan using camel caravans by smugglers ;)

lets see how this fares... who will be the first to mod a pic of the THE PUNISHER on a Humvee ?

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I thought I remember asking the question about all the content built on the old CMSF engine and if it would port or if EACH scenario/campaign would need to be rebuilt from scratch (A HUGE and unlikely to happen undertaking).

I though someone told me it would port, but without any of the advanced AI features of (at the time) ENG 3,0 or obviously now, ENG 4.0.

STILL, I am also in the group that would happily pay for an upgraded CMSF...I still play it a lot on the ol' CM rotation, and there is SO much potential for new content as more histories of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars comes out.

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Personally, I am considering the amount of work is too big to update the existing CMSF content. We must consider that campaigns and scenarios won't be adapted to the new 4.0 or 5.0 standard.

And, I do not think there is a need of a story line for CMSF II.

We need content in terms of terrains from the legacy CMSF. We need enough equipments to simulate middle east / african armies coming from legacy CMSF (don't remove T55 please). With enough diversity for simulating many possible existing countries (iraq/syria/libya/...).

We need unconventional forces for middle east / africa and europe (ukraine?).
We need civilians for rescue missions / ieds / vieds / bulldozers.

And we need to trust the community for doing the rest (campaigns / scenarios). Again, no need of a story line. Newspapers reading is enough.

That is why I agree with LongLeftFlank, it could be very much a module of CMBS. Perhaps a big module at the price of a full game but a module that will bring 4.0 or 5.0 enhancement plus UAVs, EW, and Russian army into Syria.

 

Edited by ncc1701e

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19 hours ago, borg said:

And wow ! A whooping 16 page community forum topic already in that link. Thanks man. I'll read through it. I was intrigued to see one suggesting a more realistic room clearing assault.. that's nice. 

Welcome borg :)

9 hours ago, grunt_GI said:

 there is SO much potential for new content as more histories of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars comes out.

grunt_GI nails the  bulls-eye regarding one of the reasons CMSF V 4.0 is so desirable in the New Engine form.... we want what was great and more new content in V 4.0 goodness?

4 hours ago, ncc1701e said:

Personally, I am considering the amount of work is too big to update the existing CMSF content.

We need .... (SNIP see above^)

That is why I agree with LongLeftFlank, it could be very much a module of CMBS. Perhaps a big module at the price of a full game but a module that will bring 4.0 or 5.0 enhancement plus UAVs, EW, and Russian army into Syria.

You are correct regarding the volume of work. Looking at a very heavy lift to reach back and bring everything good forward to V 4.0. From a practical business sense, a V 4.0 must be offered as a 'new game' considering the many, many hours invested and the features offered... it really is a new game.

I would differ regarding blending CMBS & CMSF for several reasons. (Guessing here... so I could be wrong :unsure:)

CMSF V4.0 will most likely be focused on bringing that theater into modern game goodness. Mixing CMSF with CMBS would not be wise business / customer wise. These games are both modern but CMBS is really very current. CMSF V4.0 would be fantastic game features but less current machines. That said CMSF V4.0 could be modded to represent many modern military events.

I suspect if the business side of CMSF V4.0 made sense ... interest and  sales... we could see a NEW MODERN CMSF... after CMSF V4.0... but that would be further down the development road.

I am hoping for CMSF V4.0 but do still play the Mac CMSF Bundle and still have fun :D. This should be a tribute to Battlefront's skill ... especially considering all the FANTASTIC WWII games they offer.

CMBN, CMFI, CMRT, CMFB... and the New Modern kick j-azz CMBS‚úÖ .

So much game ... i need more time in a day to enjoy:)

Buzz

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21 hours ago, Jock Tamson said:

I would even pay just for the update of the Quick Battle system in CMSF

Oh, yea, that's one of my BIGGEST reasons to want CMSF upgraded....I play a lot of QBs and the original system in CMSF SUX...there's no polite way to say it...it SUX.

Which is why I thank the Gamer gods that BFC when back to the roots of QB in the WW2 series and allowed the player to purchase units...SO much better.

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An updated CMSF would be wonderful.  However, am concerned that existing scenarios and campaigns will work with a CMSF2 as our experience with the WW2 titles is that fewer and fewer user-made content is being made for each new release.  Probably, it's just so much work and most would-be designers have burned out and /or moved on to other games.

CMSF2 with little content would be a waste.  I could see us continuing to play existing CMSF because the game was around long enough that the flush of enthusiasm combined with benefits of experience created campaigns and scenarios that are so well designed.

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Maybe BF could do a kickstarter for a CMSF update if that would make it more viable. It might not be realistic to have all the content (scenarios & campaigns) updated as that would be a huge amount of work. But just a little content would make it worth while for me. Just the editor is worth its weight in gold.    

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I've suggested BF use Kickstarter for a variety of things over the years... I think it could be great for them, but I am also a big supporter of them using Steam as well and that got shot down pretty hard. So... /shrug

Edited by AstroCat

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Just curious (and too lazy to search); did anyone ever try doing a Mideast mod for CMBS? There was a "Syrope" mod for CMSF, a North Africa mod for CMFI and a Pacific mod for CMBN. The basics would seem possible to work up with a little texture swapping.

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I monitor CMMODS and d/l just about everything and have not seen such a mod.

I am amazed that no one has attempted a Mosul mission with Iraq Army vs Uncons (esp using your xnt Ramadi map).  Actually, any mission on your map would be great as it is one of the finest, maybe the finest CMSF map.

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Ok. So., how can we ROCK ?

Shall we utilise what we have in CMSF and make a LOVELY mouth-watering Ramadi map based Op. 

Or shall we dig CMBS and its available resources ? 

OR the more reasons why @battlefront.com can give us a Happy Chinese New Year present by updating the engine 4.0 yesterday :) no harm in suggesting - is there ?

 

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19 hours ago, Erwin said:

I monitor CMMODS and d/l just about everything and have not seen such a mod.

I am amazed that no one has attempted a Mosul mission with Iraq Army vs Uncons (esp using your xnt Ramadi map).  Actually, any mission on your map would be great as it is one of the finest, maybe the finest CMSF map.

I appreciate that this may sound a tad combative but FWIW a number of points:

A Mosul mission on a Ramadi map wouldn't be a Mosul mission ...

AFAIK only two people have released CMSF content (missions/campaigns) over the last 12  months myself and @dragonwynn

I have no interest in doing a Mosul scenario.

You could always click the 'scenario editor' button in CMSF and make one yourself rather than complain about the absence of Mosul scenarios.

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To my eye, one Iraqi town looks any other once you get into the tactical house to house fighting.  It's nice that a map may have accurate buildings, water towers etc, but to a gamer that is not relevant at the tactical level.  A portion of the Ramadi map could represent any ME town.  (And I didn't mean that I was asking you specifically - you've done your bit for this game and it's greatly appreciated.)

I tried creating scenarios in CM1 but that was MUCH easier than in CM2.  Don't have the talent or patience to try to figure out the CM2 editor.  That's a real problem for content creation in CM2 and why we have a steadily decreasing quantity of user-made scenarios after each new CM2 release.  (One presumes that due to burn-out, there are very few of us from the "old days" even posting here any more.)

Aside from heroic dedicated folks (like yourself), most of us want to play the damn game, not spend hundreds of man-hours figuring out how to design giving the complexity of CM2.  I belong to the camp that would pay BF for professionally made campaigns as those are the most massively time consuming projects.

My comments earlier were addressing the irony of CM2 touting itself as a great simulator, but we don't see scenarios being made (like Mosul) that deal with current events that would be interesting to simulate.  For some reason we sim potential Ukraine conflict no problem, but not current Iraq or Syrian situations.  Have cognitive dissonance about that..

Edited by Erwin

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4 hours ago, Erwin said:

I belong to the camp that would pay BF for professionally made campaigns as those are the most massively time consuming projects.

This is indeed the purpose of Battle packs. And, I would be happy to pay from them.

Upgrading Shock Force is a huge task. I think we must be realists. BF needs to concentrate on adding content in terms of units/terrains/armies to the latest engine. So that scenario designers could play with, either creating Battle packs either delivering them free.

I am learning the editor right now, finally I should say. Creating a scenario is time consuming indeed but there are well done tutorials out there to help. And, this is entertaining too.

Edited by ncc1701e

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