Tea Time. Beta AAR discussion threat. Not for Bill or Elvis ;-)

[Vanir Ausf B]

@ Vanir. naturaly you would shift mroe forces but there is "only" one that can react pretty fast and help the one platoon that is attackt directly. the rest will need time to arrive.

And i just wanted to show a weak point. Well my plan has the same/ similiar Problem.

Sure, but keep in mind that Bil isn't going to throw all 3 companies into the fight at once, particularly in close terrain. That would make for an incredibly juicy mortar target. Once his attack has begun he will most likely not have more than 2 platoons "up" at any given time.

I never Imagined Bill would suggest that line of approach, and I think it will give him Problems If he comitts to much to it and Elvis reads it correctly.

Elvis could hold him in that Forests and Flank for a realy long time.

The point of recon pull is that he actually isn't committing to anything yet.

[lurrp]

I think the Straggler company may have been a mistake. I don't know anything about it really, but Elvis' screenshots suggest a light formation lacking much heavy support. Bill now has a 3-1 advantage in terms of infantry manpower, as well as a huge advantage in armor. I think CMRT is about to demonstrate that the big cats aren't nearly as scary as they used to be. Looks to me like Elvis is facing three unpalatable options:

1. Try to defend everywhere with the forces he has at his disposal. Probably the worst option, as Bil could punch through pretty quickly. After all, a company with a few support teams can't defend the entire width of the map against a much larger combined arms force.

2. Concentrate on that first objective and deploy everything around it. In my opinion, this is the best option. However, the big risk is that Bil can pretty much bypass Elvis and take the other two objectives bloodlessly. I think the best thing here would be to determine a choke point or tactically important location and set up a balanced defense in depth, or at least as much as this is possible.

3. Use scattered ambushes to try to inflict as much damage "first strike" as possible, while using armor to ambush and hopefully kill Bil's tanks. This appears to be what Elvis is going for, but IMO Bil is just too good at scouting and anticipating people's moves. The ambushers may quickly turn to the ambushed without Elvis even knowing. Still, this is a good idea. Just very risky.

[c3k]

Trying to defend against the Soviets inside woods is not the way to go, IMO. A knife-fight plays into the hands of the guy with more men and more PPSh's.

I like the idea of strongpoints, mutually supporting, with lateral fields of fire, covered to the front.

One little scrap of land, thus far ignored, is the scrub at 16/03. I'd put at least an HMG42 in there with a tight covered arc and wait for an opportunity.

Bil will get to the edge of the woods (from Bil's view, the far edge), without too many casualties unless Elvis puts some strongpoints in there. He'll have to contest the few openings as best he can, then hightail it out of there as Bil takes time to either deploy firepower or ooze elsewhere. Without some guys up front to pop Bil in the nose, Elvis will be doomed.

The town along the road: Going house to house, with heavy firepower in support, will allow Bil to roll that up. Cutting the town crosswise with HE from his backfield is something Elvis needs to look at. Just manning that objective at the end of the town will allow Bil too much freedom and cover.

But then, y'all have seen how I played against Bil.

Pulling for Elvis over here.

Bil has shown how he places units around the map and scouts for LOS by using target lines. At least, he showed two examples of that in his thread. I never bother doing that. This type of analysis, if it is how Bil prepares, can be used against him. Find the best spot, then think about where Bil would counter it. Then counter his counter.

Ken

[sburke]

Trying to defend against the Soviets inside woods is not the way to go, IMO. A knife-fight plays into the hands of the guy with more men and more PPSh's.

I like the idea of strongpoints, mutually supporting, with lateral fields of fire, covered to the front.

One little scrap of land, thus far ignored, is the scrub at 16/03. I'd put at least an HMG42 in there with a tight covered arc and wait for an opportunity.

Bil will get to the edge of the woods (from Bil's view, the far edge), without too many casualties unless Elvis puts some strongpoints in there. He'll have to contest the few openings as best he can, then hightail it out of there as Bil takes time to either deploy firepower or ooze elsewhere. Without some guys up front to pop Bil in the nose, Elvis will be doomed.

The town along the road: Going house to house, with heavy firepower in support, will allow Bil to roll that up. Cutting the town crosswise with HE from his backfield is something Elvis needs to look at. Just manning that objective at the end of the town will allow Bil too much freedom and cover.

But then, y'all have seen how I played against Bil.

Pulling for Elvis over here.

Bil has shown how he places units around the map and scouts for LOS by using target lines. At least, he showed two examples of that in his thread. I never bother doing that. This type of analysis, if it is how Bil prepares, can be used against him. Find the best spot, then think about where Bil would counter it. Then counter his counter.

Ken

Put a trp on the spot and drop a few mortar rounds. You absolutely know he wants intel first so he is gonna send the guy up. Place somebody who has the sole job of noting movement to that location/locations...then make him pay. The longer Bil lacks intel, the shorter the clock gets. I'd be real curious as to what he'd do if he found himself poked in the eye every time he tried to look. Downside of AARs is EVERYONE sees how you play LOL

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think the Straggler company may have been a mistake. I don't know anything about it really, but Elvis' screenshots suggest a light formation lacking much heavy support. Bill now has a 3-1 advantage in terms of infantry manpower, as well as a huge advantage in armor.

Not really. Counting squads I come up with 24 Soviet and 16 German. Assuming Soviet squads are about 11 men each and German 9 the headcount is only about 1.8 to 1. Elvis has 8 independent machine gun teams to Bil's 6. Bil certainly has a lot more mobile firepower with his 6 tanks, but Elvis's are well-armored up front.

What does worry me is what weapons the straggler squads are carrying. If it's mostly K98s that will not be good.

[lurrp]

Ok, so maybe the manpower deficiency isn't as bad as I thought. However, the fact that the Straggler Group seems very lightly armed- am I correct in seeing only 1x LMG per platoon? And mostly bolt-actions? I don't think Elvis' close range ambushes are going to be that effective, unless he can murder those desantniks with SMGs before they get close.

[ChrisND]

Ok, so maybe the manpower deficiency isn't as bad as I thought. However, the fact that the Straggler Group seems very lightly armed- am I correct in seeing only 1x LMG per platoon? And mostly bolt-actions?

Yep, the Straggler platoons have about 70% bolt-action rifles, 30% SMGs, exactly one LMG, and maybe 5-10% of the soldiers have a Panzerfaust.

[lurrp]

Ouch. And I'm going to estimate a Soviet rifle platoon at 10% LMG, 40-50% SMG, 50-60% bolt-action. Seems like Elvis is outgunned.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Given his infantry firepower deficit Elvis will probably have to try something like this. The problem is that if he doesn't defend inside the woods Bil can pretty much walk right up to the southern-most objective uncontested.

On the Eastern side of the map there is a break in the woods between the areas of interest Bil has labeled KT5 and KT6 that Elvis should take advantage of, but once Bil gets into KT6 the forest doesn't stop until 100m south of the northern-most objective.

The objective along the western edge of the map looks like the only one that is readily defensible via long range firepower.

Trying to defend against the Soviets inside woods is not the way to go, IMO. A knife-fight plays into the hands of the guy with more men and more PPSh's.

I like the idea of strongpoints, mutually supporting, with lateral fields of fire, covered to the front.

[Offshoot]

In light of Steve's comments in the Soviet doctrine thread and given Bil's play style, it will be interesting to see how this one plays out. Will Bil's scouts be up to the task of giving him the info he needs to develop a plan?

[Callidus87]

It looks realy bad for the Germans.

We could hope that the mali for splitting troops are realy big for the russians. Perhabs big enough to throw back 2 man scout teams before they can profite good intel.

German Frontal armor on theire Tankls isn't a reliable defence in this battle. T34/85 and ISU 122 have enough fire Power to easy penetrat Hetzers and they can penetrate the Panther.

He has to scout realy good and deni Bill reliable intel.

I agree, he should try to get as much ambushes as possible.

[Vanir Ausf B]

German Frontal armor on theire Tankls isn't a reliable defence in this battle. T34/85 and ISU 122 have enough fire Power to easy penetrat Hetzers and they can penetrate the Panther.

122mm is very dangerous, but the slow rate of fire means the first shot is extra important.

Soviet 85mm has about the same penetration as U.S. 76mm.

[Callidus87]

Hm, I thought it was more like the german 75mm from the paks pzvi etc. the short one.

well which isn't that much of a diffrence...

The Point is Elvis has to be careful with his tanks and the Kittys are weaker as vs US.

[Battlefront.com]

It will be interesting to see, that's for sure. In H2H test battles so far the Soviet tanks definitely show their real world weaknesses pretty readily. In fact, Bil played as the Germans once and slaughtered the Soviet tanks out in the open at a pretty good distance. The Soviet tanks had serious problems spotting Bil's tanks. If you can't see it, you can't shoot at it.

Steve

[Vanir Ausf B]

In fact, Bil played as the Germans once and slaughtered the Soviet tanks out in the open at a pretty good distance. The Soviet tanks had serious problems spotting Bil's tanks.

Sure, but was that because the tanks were Soviet or because Bil is Bil

[Battlefront.com]

There was a brief discussion about that very same question

Full disclosure, Bil had Panthers in hull down positions in a Meeting Engagement. Not the best conditions for a Soviet player with a bunch of armor.

Steve

[Vanir Ausf B]

Hm, I thought it was more like the german 75mm from the paks pzvi etc. the short one.

well which isn't that much of a diffrence...

The Point is Elvis has to be careful with his tanks and the Kittys are weaker as vs US.

Let me qualify that by saying that it depends on range, ammunition and armor type. At 100 meters the 85 does generally perform more like the German 75 on the Panzer IV, but at 1000 meters it's the same as the US 76 vs RHA and a bit worse vs face hardened armor.

Bottom line is that Elvis needs to find some good hull down positions with LOS to interdict Bil's advance, preferably at long range.

[herr_oberst]

Laggards! This thread's almost off the front page.

Granted, nothing much is happening at the moment, but I almost wish Elvis had pre-planned some arty on the woods Bil is hustling through.

Bring on the 'splody things.

[Battlefront.com]

This is going to be interesting. Bil's advance on KT1 and KT2 will meet with some decent defenses that could cause things to go really badly for him as he doesn't appear to have enough strength to power through.

KT3 is more of a straight up fight between two roughly equal forces with neither able to provide direct support. This one could go more in Bil's favor, especially if Elvis decides to withdraw back to OBJ Blau.

Steve

[Vanir Ausf B]

It looks like in the east Elvis is so far content to wait for Bil on farm 3 with a couple of forward outposts in the woods directly south (the northern half of KT2). It could be several turns before contact is made.

First contact will probably be in or around KT3 where Elvis is scouting ahead of his setup zone. Bil's troops have the firepower but at these ranges with no fire support firefights are about who spots first/shoots first.

[Jishmael]

Its not really an advance though now, right? hes probing and should have lots of stuff in Reserve. If he judges his Contact timing right I think the Defenses can still be wiped out pretty efficiently.

So I think its gonna come down to Elvis's nerves and Timing on those ambushes, as well as those of his units and of cause Bils Units spotting and his sense for enemy forces.

Also it comes down to the timing and Positioning when Elvis Tanks move out, if they hit the right spot I have to admit this might get bad for the russians, if he waits too long or acts too quickly it will hurt.

Oooooh the suspense!

[lurrp]

I think Bil's men have the advantage in this wooded terrain, mostly because they have roughly three times as many SMGs per squad. However, one thing I didn't see anyone mention is that the cluttered terrain and limited Soviet radios might mean Bil's squads will be out of command fairly frequently, at least until he moves more stuff up. I think best case scenario for Elvis is that Bil's scouts are neutralized, either by mines or by Elvis' scouts. If Elvis can keep the Soviet probing attacks at bay, Bil might lose valuable time.

[John Kettler]

Jishmael,

I don't understand your comment to the effect that shooting mortars into woods isn't a good use for them. History shows that it's a very good idea. Poor man's VT, if you will. Not only does fire into trees create highly desirable overhead bursts, but on a real battlefield, soldiers are also taking damage from splintered wood and tree limbs crashing down upon them. It got so bad in Huertgen forest that troops caught on the hop swiftly learned that going prone was a bad idea, greatly increasing the their chances of being hit. Instead, the drill was to hug a tree trunk, since it minimized exposure to fragments coming in vertically rather than horizontally. The treeburst problem was so bad there and losses so great in consequence, that the Army had to provide overhead cover for foxholes.

Nor does it really have to be vertically arriving to wreak havoc. I know of a case in France in which a single barrel 2cm Flak caught a U.S. infantry platoon coming out of a tree line. The direct casualties were exceeded by the aforementioned flying splinters and falling branch issues. Shots which missed the men often hit the tree trunks, causing frags and tree parts coming in from all sorts of unexpected directions. That hapless platoon was pretty much shot to pieces almost instantly, with nearly everyone in the platoon hit and injured and many killed.

lurrp,

Regarding defense option 1 for Elvis, I quote Napoleon. "He who would defend everything will have nothing." I have no brilliant plan of defense to offer, but option 1 is military suicide. I think the trick for Elvis will be massing enough combat power when and where needed to hurt Bil, who has very little experience that I've seen being hurt, without getting sleeted by all his firepower. Aye, there's the rub. I absolutely agree that Elvis needs to poke out Bil's eyes at every chance. Otherwise, Bil's going to act somewhat like a blind man as he feels his way forward, gathering information with every touch. When he has enough, he'll strike, as the Russians say, na levo--in the liver. Elvis really needs to do a good job on counterreconnaissance. I've seen how Bil does recon, and he simply can't be allowed to do that unhindered.

All,

Since Bil's attacking, does anyone know how long it would take him to bring AAA into play once the Ju-87G-2 attack begins? Bil's AAA can't fire from the move, after all. Not even the airplane eating radar directed ZSU-23/4 of the Cold War could do that. When Bil brings his Il-2 to the party, Elvis will presumably have own his flak static and ready to go. Seems to me that might make a real difference.

Update: Went back and checked. Bil has no AAA! He'd better hope the Ju-87G-2 is a poor shot. Otherwise, it could be very painful.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Cymru]

The damage that splinters can cause was well known in the Napoleonic-era navies. Of course the term splinter is being stretched when it is a two foot lomg piece of jagged oak.

[BLSTK]

...like blind man as he feels his way forward, gathering information with every touch. When he has enough, he'll strike, as the Russians say, na levo--in the liver.

I guess that's where the vodka comes in.