Help for bad player

[ricroma]

Hi,

I confess, I am a bad player. I like complicated games, in particular CM, but I happen to be a really bad player.

In particular, in this post I would like to have some advice from good player about one of the most frustrating aspect of the game (at least for me): scouting.

I'm not military expert, so what I do would be mostly wrong under every possible aspect. Here is my problems:

- scouting cars / vehicles: these are the most frustrating. They look cool and fast, but in my hands they become mostly moving coffins. I figure that they are supposed to go ahead and spot enemy positions. Some causality is always possible, of course, but when I play they usually last a couple of turns. They rarely return fire, actually they rarely "spot" an enemy, most of the time they are caught by enemy fire without an hint of where it comes from. I guess my error lies mostly in the fact that I used to rush them too fast and too far from the bulk of my forces. Lately I start to move them slower (mostly in hunt mode), but achieved similar result. I don't know if this is historically accurate, but if it is, man, it would have take a lot of courage to be behind the wheel of these things back in those days.

- Infantry: compared to scouting cars, they seems a little better in actually spotting the enemy. When possible I set a squad in hunting mode and send it ahead covered by another squad. What usually happen anyway is that they spot the enemy only because the enemy starts fire upon them. This turns out to be a shooting game for the enemy, since my scouting team/squad tends to become pinned/suppressed and rarely returns fire. Better results are achieved by properly setting up a covering squad, but even in this case the causalities are pretty high, since the enemy is usually dug in. I understand that even better result would be achieved by starting to lay suppressive fire on "supposed" enemy positions before they are actually spotted. This worked for me a couple of times, but the problem here is that, since I play wego, the suppressing team/squad end up wasting a considerable amount of ammunition: they start shooting at the begin of the turn and won't stop.

So, these are my concerns on scouting. Sorry for the long post. I'm at work and is the slowest day ever... I had to kill time somehow!

Ricroma

[womble]

- scouting cars / vehicles: these are the most frustrating. They look cool and fast, but in my hands they become mostly moving coffins. I figure that they are supposed to go ahead and spot enemy positions.

They are supposed to go ahead and spot enemy positions, but in reality, not on the scale of the CM map. By the time there's a company waiting in the setup zone, the scout car's job is done. So if you use them as scouts in most CM scenarios, yes, moving coffins is what they generally become. They might be useable in this wise on a very large map with relatively small forces, but things are just a little too congested in the majority of cases for them to be useful as scouting assets.

- Infantry: compared to scouting cars, they seems a little better in actually spotting the enemy. When possible I set a squad in hunting mode and send it ahead covered by another squad. What usually happen anyway is that they spot the enemy only because the enemy starts fire upon them.

Of course, it depends on the terrain a bit, but it is possible to scout with infantry. What's worked for me:

• Give the scouts a short, circular cover arc;
  
• Use Slow movement most of the time, and always when moving from where you can't be (or at least don't think you've been) seen to where you might be seen (and have something to see);
  
• Sit still at the OP for a couple of minutes (necessary anyway if it's been a long crawl through bushes to get there);
  
• Use any available concealment. If there isn't any, think about smoke or a different axis of approach. You don't have to be where the tanks are coming from to spot what they're going to roll over...
  

It's not always feasible to scout every bound and some terrain is so hard to see through that recon by fire is necessary. I still can't bring myself to just scoot a 2-man team out into the middle of a field and see what shoots at them... :-/

...suppressive fire ...end up wasting a considerable amount of ammunition: they start shooting at the begin of the turn and won't stop.

You can limit this in some situations by using Pause commands and giving move orders. If you issue a move order, and at the waypoint at the end of that move order put a short cover arc, then pause at the beginning of the move (i.e. where you are) the element will shoot for the duration of the pause, then move (generally not shooting - if it's an MG-armed vehicle, you might want to allow for the time taken for the move when assigning your pause) and when it gets where you sent it the short cover arc will apply and they'll cease fire. Or the other way round, if you have them in a position where they can't fire, then give them a pause for 15s, and then a short move up to their firing position, with a 'target area' order at the terminal waypoint, you'll probably only be firing for half a minute or so.

[Vencini]

The first thing, I think, it’s to try to mantaing the line of command with your HQ unit (infantry or vehicles) The units will spot with more facility the enemy.

Units are not robots. They need a little bit of time to spot the enemy (elite fast, green slow and HQ command level)

The infantry are the “eyes” of your vehicles. So go first with the infantry and scout the terrain before go with your vehicles. Vehicles spot well when they are unbuttoned but try not to expose them prematury (you know the results)

Split your infantry units in temas with a scout team, for example

I’m a noob too, and I wait with interest the advices of other experienced players

Take a look at this video

[email=http://www.battlefront.com/community/announcement.php?f=124&a=464]http://www.battlefront.com/community/announcement.php?f=124&a=464

Sorry for my English :-S hope my advices helps… Greetings

[Animal_Mother]

When scouting I always use small infantry elements--the 3-man scout teams are best but I always use random force selection so these are not always available. Extra arty spotters, ammo bearers, LMG teams also work, binoculars are a plus but not absolutely necessary. Use the Hunt order. The idea is that if they get wiped out you've only taken a couple of casualties. Now once the enemy has foolishly given away their position firing on your scouts it's time for payback. My favorite unit to cover an advance with is light mortars, firing directly--they'll put a serious hurting on anything they see, unless its armor. Remember the idea is not to take no casualties yourself but to make the enemy take MORE casualties, and HE is the way to do that.

[Sgt Schultz]

All tips are for WEGO play.

As stated above, small infantry units using Hunt or Slow tend to work best as scouts.

When using scout vehicles, keep them a few tiles back from the troops screening them,in fire support positions.

Use small movement orders with the Slow command for vehicles when you are not sure what is ahead. Hunt tends to make vehicles tool along at a faster clip than is warranted.

If you want a quick peek with a vehicle, then set up a shoot-n-scoot. Move order from concealment very short distance forward. 5 second pause. Reverse back to original postion. Put in a Pop Smoke at the end of the Move order but before the Reverse if you are fairly certain there are enemy present. This makes the next few minutes easier for follow-on scouts.

Covered Arcs concentrate the unit's attention to that area, so use those for scouts.

-

[GhostRider3/3]

Hello Ricroma,

In regards to the Armored Cars, I use similar Tactics in which Womble had posted. I think one of the best things to do is before you do any movement, survey the land at eye level, as if you were the driver or Commander of the vehicle. a couple different things I do that are successful.. 80% of the time anyways are.

1. Use Hunt and reverse on the reverse slopes of hills so that only the top of the Armored car is visible to an enemy if you can use a hill for recon.

A: Hunt to Position- (Click on the white end and then you can pause 5-10sec.) Reverse, and repeat. (You can do the same with Armor, works best again on the reverse slope or in Tree Lines)

B: Rolling Recon- (Its a must that you survey for obvious choke points, tree lines, and ambush area's) Depending on the terrain, again you must survey the land to give you an advantage of not only observation but of egress as well. Some methods I have used would be Quick to a position... Hunt or slow... then Quick again. Repeat.

Never use Armor in wooded, Urban terrain without infantry moving in first. Give yourself as much distance between your vehicle and what you may think could be enemy areas of resistance. *** use your MG or the 20mm to try and expose enemy positions, hitting treelines, buildings etc. You can do this on the move. Another thing to is always used Covered Arc towards what you know to be most likely where the enemy is, I found that it helps getting the first shots off... sometimes but nothing is perfect. You have to sometimes be patient in using Armored assets that are in front of your main forces.

[Bil Hardenberger]

- scouting cars / vehicles: ... They rarely return fire, actually they rarely "spot" an enemy, most of the time they are caught by enemy fire without an hint of where it comes from .... I used to rush them too fast and too far from the bulk of my forces.

- Infantry: .... What usually happen anyway is that they spot the enemy only because the enemy starts fire upon them. .... my scouting team/squad tends to become pinned/suppressed and rarely returns fire .... the enemy is usually dug in .... they start shooting at the begin of the turn and won't stop.

When doing reconnaisance the main rule of thumb is to see without being seen. Your goal is to discover the locations and the intent of the enemy force.. you should not be engaging them.

If that means dismounting from your scout cars, then by all means park them somewhere that they cannot be seen, and then carefully put your dismounts into positions that have good lines of sight. This is why higher elevations are so important tactically. If you are smart you can usually get a good view of the battlefiled using just a few scouts.

If the enemy starts to get close where you think you might be in danger of coming into contact then fall back to another position. From time to time scouts will be forced to fight, especially in the recon fight where your goal is to blind the enemy.. but do not perform this mission without maintaining your visibility of the battlefield.

Before I decide on how to commit my main force I always perform a reconnaisance with as few units as possible. The key to being successful is to not hesitate once you know how the enemy is positioned or moving.. attack where he is weak with a superior force, don't neglect to have a base of fire to pour suppressive fire upon the enemy formation and to support an assaulting force.

When scouting, use the terrain.. try to use covered movement through dips in the ground, terrain features, etc. in order to remain unseen while moving. Use many waypoints along your route and use the Target command at every waypoint to insure that you cannot be seen at that location from the enemy side of the map... if you get a good targetting line, or an area fire targetting line, then find another safer route.

Use the terrain wisely for Observation Posts... buildings, as high as you can get are good, woods are excellent forms of cover as well... when using woods stay as far inside them as possible.. check with the Target command that you can only just see outside the woods (to the area or terrain feature you are interested in watching).. the closer you are the edge of the woods the easier it will be for the enemy to spot your scouts (to see this in action check out the AAR link at the bottom of this post).

Good luck!

Bil

[slysniper]

I do not use scouts much. In most of the scenarios I play, I would call it more as Point men.

Sending out point men in front of my main units will help smoke out concealed enemy but only exposes the point unit to likely killing fire, so it is more important to make sure you have plenty of overwatch units to spot and return fire once you expose the enemy. This is quick and dirty, you likely lose the point unit in the situation. but you generally find and destroy the enemy for their efforts.

taking the safe route, hoping to not run into someone, crawling on your belly until you are tired to truly scout does little in most games and it takes plenty of time that can be better used. Plus if you are ambushed and killed nothing gained at all. So true scouting is a rare need in the game presently unless you are playing huge battles with plenty of ground to keep track of and you are trying to discover enemy movement to likely attack points.

I have found a few scenarios where armor cars can be used in a scouting roll.

Best way to get the job done quickly is to have multible cars in column or leapfrogging and again expect the first to get wasted in meeting the enemy. but if done correctly the units behind it will spot what happened, then get the information you might be looking for.

So I am one that has no problem spilling pixal blood to get the job done right and quickly.

[GhostRider3/3]

I do not use scouts much. In most of the scenarios I play, I would call it more as Point men.

Sending out point men in front of my main units will help smoke out concealed enemy but only exposes the point unit to likely killing fire, so it is more important to make sure you have plenty of overwatch units to spot and return fire once you expose the enemy. This is quick and dirty, you likely lose the point unit in the situation. but you generally find and destroy the enemy for their efforts.

taking the safe route, hoping to not run into someone, crawling on your belly until you are tired to truly scout does little in most games and it takes plenty of time that can be better used. Plus if you are ambushed and killed nothing gained at all. So true scouting is a rare need in the game presently unless you are playing huge battles with plenty of ground to keep track of and you are trying to discover enemy movement to likely attack points.

I have found a few scenarios where armor cars can be used in a scouting roll.

Best way to get the job done quickly is to have multible cars in column or leapfrogging and again expect the first to get wasted in meeting the enemy. but if done correctly the units behind it will spot what happened, then get the information you might be looking for.

So I am one that has no problem spilling pixal blood to get the job done right and quickly.

Ouch Sly... LOL I would not want to be your point man.. LOL It is a way to "Metagame" if you have enough units to loose. For some odd reason, maybe its my Marine Corps experience but I always want to try and bring everyone home.. even in game, I always try and get low casualties and feel awful when I take casualties... but it happens... LOL

[Pak40]

Hi,

- Infantry: compared to scouting cars, they seems a little better in actually spotting the enemy. When possible I set a squad in hunting mode and send it ahead covered by another squad. What usually happen anyway is that they spot the enemy only because the enemy starts fire upon them. This turns out to be a shooting game for the enemy, since my scouting team/squad tends to become pinned/suppressed and rarely returns fire.

You're wasting an entire squad when scouting with this method.

1. Split off a scout team and use the rest of the squad as an additional fire support.

2. Set the scout team to hunt and have him leave the friendly side towards the enemy. The scout team's job is to draw fire. Likely you are going to lose them at some point, so don't get sentimental.

3. As the scout team is leaving, bring up as much supporting fire as possible. If you are U.S. side, put at least on 60mm mortar on that hedgerow for direct fire support - this is the quickest way to kill a unit once they are spotted on the next hedgerow. Also put your platoon HQ team on that headgerow - this will help with C2 to the scout and therefore better spotting. Ideally you want these teams on the hedgerow before the scout team even leaves, but usually you can time it just right. Also, don't target random areas, let them fire at will when they finally spot enemy. Once they do spot an enemy or two, then you can use the target command for all available supporting units.

4. Once your scout team is fired on it will go to ground. Keep them alive as long as possible to help with spotting.

5. Once it seems that all enemy are quiet on the opposing hedgerow, give another hunt order to your scouts. If they are dead, then split another scout unit off another squad. If they move halfway down the field without being fired on then you might change the order to Quick and move up another unit.

Scout/armored cars are analogous to the 2 man scout team that is split off of the squad. When you have tanks, the armored cars are the sacrificial lambs. However, if all you have is armored cars, then I would use them in a support role for your infantry.

[jbmtintin]

If you want a quick peek with a vehicle, then set up a shoot-n-scoot. Move order from concealment very short distance forward. 5 second pause. Reverse back to original postion. Put in a Pop Smoke at the end of the Move order but before the Reverse if you are fairly certain there are enemy present. This makes the next few minutes easier for follow-on scouts.

Thanks for that... I never tried something like that, but I will try! Usually I just use two - or more - scout vehicles supporting each other and making little jumps... More often the first one is dead, but the second one has a chance to have his revenge.

[Erwin]

Since teams with binoculars get spotting bonuses (AFAIK) you can also use some of those otherwise useless XO and HQ Support units as scouts.

Unless you tend to get your Co HQ's KIA a lot, the only other function for those extraneous HQ units is to act as medics. (And I have been quite vociferous in the past about the fact I would have rather had medics than all those extra HQ units cluttering up the battlefield, heh.)

[BletchleyGeek]

Thank you and very good advice in this thread, learnt a couple things as well.

I think I can only add something: infantry recon is not only useful in the attack, also in the defense. The following mostly applies to QBs where you buy your troops.

One of its purposes is the same as in attack to gain information. But rather than locating enemy strongpoints, heavy weapon locations, etc. to get a hold on the overall attack plan of your enemy. This allows to setup area fires to interdict his advance, or if you get really good intel, identify where he's forming up and direct area fires on that location.

Second purpose is to harass advancing forces. In really close terrain country - hedgerow country - marauding the no man's land with PzSchrek/Bazooka and Tank Hunter teams can really make very expensive your opponent approach. This can work surprisingly well sometimes. On a recent H2H game I faced a full US Cavalry Squadron with a Reinforced Grenadier Company. These roamers stalked approaching Scout AFVs and Jeeps and thinned down considerably my opponent ranks.

In open terrain, small teams of Scout + LMG (or FO + Scout + LMG) roaming around can still disrupt and held up a significantly larger force. As other posters said, go to eye level and look for crests in the terrain, and move from reverse slope to reverse slope. Scout - either German or US - have weapons with high ROF, and the LMG has both ROF and range. FO's is a bit risky, they're really expensive.

My usual technique is to do a "shoot-n-scoot" like maneuver but for an extended period of time. Setting up pauses also helps to negotiate the slack inherent to WEGO turns. EDIT: Keeping in mind that they're not meant to hold any ground is of the essence. Never stay in the same place for a very long time. Keep moving!

Having good leadership, experience and motivation on these recon elements is a must, I think. You really want them to be difficult to get suppressed, and if so, to get unsupressed quickly.

[Sgt Schultz]

Two steps forward, and one step back tends to keep scout vehicles alive longer.

Using reverse as much as or more than forward, yet still advancing is the mark of a recon master.

Position all units that still have 'Pop Smoke' capability upwind along your linear advance line. Lead from the upwind side when and where possible. This allows for any smoke to cover downwind advances to the point of contact.

If you are an American player, then it is likely you have enough smoke to walk a linear platoon right up to an enemy postion... one pop at a time with proper displacements.

And don't get me started on M8 Greyhound smoke. Shades of the 'The Fog' from Steven King. :eek:

-

[Erwin]

It would be good if there was a "Recon" mode. The trouble with HUNT is that as soon as the unit sees trouble it simply stops, when what one really would do is back-pedal out of harm's way as fast as possible. That was the whole point of the German 8 wheel recon vehicles, they had a driver at each end so they could reverse as fast as forwards. Not modeled in the game unfortunately.

The other thing that would be helpful is if designers made recon units Crack or Elite to sim their extra training - that way they should spot quicker and take action faster rather than "spotting by getting shot." Actually, it would be good to make all specialized troops Crack or Elite: Engineers, Snipers, Recon...

[Sgt Schultz]

I try to design my recon troops/vehicles to Vet/High/+1 standards for just that reason.

Crack is fairly awe-inspiring ... never even tried elite PSWs.

[GhostRider3/3]

It would be good if there was a "Recon" mode. The trouble with HUNT is that as soon as the unit sees trouble it simply stops, when what one really would do is back-pedal out of harm's way as fast as possible. That was the whole point of the German 8 wheel recon vehicles, they had a driver at each end so they could reverse as fast as forwards. Not modeled in the game unfortunately.

The other thing that would be helpful is if designers made recon units Crack or Elite to sim their extra training - that way they should spot quicker and take action faster rather than "spotting by getting shot." Actually, it would be good to make all specialized troops Crack or Elite: Engineers, Snipers, Recon...

I had the most awesome priveledge to talk to a German vet who was attached the 17thSS GBV Aufklärungs-Abteilung. He did mention since they were either usually at the front or tasked with Flank, or even Rear guard alot of them were extremely experienced he said. He also mentioned that alot of times they worked hand in hand with the Flak.abt in defensive screens... he said the scream of the 88's were devestating. He also mentioned that the Allied Artillery was just as devestating.

[slysniper]

It would be good if there was a "Recon" mode. The trouble with HUNT is that as soon as the unit sees trouble it simply stops, when what one really would do is back-pedal out of harm's way as fast as possible. That was the whole point of the German 8 wheel recon vehicles, they had a driver at each end so they could reverse as fast as forwards. Not modeled in the game unfortunately.

The other thing that would be helpful is if designers made recon units Crack or Elite to sim their extra training - that way they should spot quicker and take action faster rather than "spotting by getting shot." Actually, it would be good to make all specialized troops Crack or Elite: Engineers, Snipers, Recon...

That is the first suggestion in a while that makes too much sence, it might be a easy one with how the system is designed that would help many players.

I use hunt or quick with pauses for all my scouting with armor of any kind. I dont normally use reverse as suggested. I find that if I have something like a armor car, if I use hunt, they stop when they spot something. Normally if it is anything that can kill them, they reverse all on their own if they are near cover, which is where I normally use the hunt command. If not they take some fire, if they live, they alway reverse

Actually this is the first thread worth anything in a long time. I really like it when guys start talking about tactics and how to employ them in the game.

Wish there was more of this type of talk and that it would be placed in a place easy to find instead of just the main chat room area.

But plenty of good suggestions so far, there is never one answer. Its fun to be able to find the best for the situation at hand.

[Andrew H.]

At the risk of being repetitive:

1. Split off the 3-man scout team from an infantry squad and use that to scout.

2. Give the team a short covered arc (<10 meters) - otherwise, they will open up on what they discover and get killed.

3. Use the "hunt" command with a "hide" command at the end. This way, as soon as they spot something, they will go to ground and hide and *probably* not get killed. They won't spot as well while hiding, so the next turn unhide them, but don't move them.

4. Move through cover only if you think you might encounter enemy units.

5. "Slow" is too slow and too exhausting to use much, but use it for the last 10 meters or so if you think you are coming up on an area where there are likely to be a lot of enemy troops. I.e., if you suspect that there are enemy units back behind a hedgerow, "hunt" through cover until you get close to the hedgerow, and then "slow" up to the hedgerow itself, ending with a "hide".

6. Double check to make sure you've set appropriate covered arcs. This is tedious...

[Animal_Mother]

At the risk of being repetitive:

1. Split off the 3-man scout team from an infantry squad and use that to scout.

2. Give the team a short covered arc (<10 meters) - otherwise, they will open up on what they discover and get killed.

3. Use the "hunt" command with a "hide" command at the end. This way, as soon as they spot something, they will go to ground and hide and *probably* not get killed. They won't spot as well while hiding, so the next turn unhide them, but don't move them.

4. Move through cover only if you think you might encounter enemy units.

5. "Slow" is too slow and too exhausting to use much, but use it for the last 10 meters or so if you think you are coming up on an area where there are likely to be a lot of enemy troops. I.e., if you suspect that there are enemy units back behind a hedgerow, "hunt" through cover until you get close to the hedgerow, and then "slow" up to the hedgerow itself, ending with a "hide".

6. Double check to make sure you've set appropriate covered arcs. This is tedious...

But if your scout unit has a short covered arc they won't stop & hide unless fired upon or the enemy they see is actually inside the arc, right? Or does it work differently with the hide command at the end? If so I might try that. But it seems to me that if you used no covered arc and a hunt order with hide at the end they would hide immediately upon seeing enemy, and being hidden wouldn't fire on anything. Darn it, now you've got me thinking & I'll have to go try it.

[Erwin]

I agree with Andrew's tactics. You need a 5m-10m range arc. We're told that one can simply use the 360 degree arc, but that means your scouts could be looking in any direction, so I use 180 degree arcs to ensure they'll be looking where I want them to look, and yes it's become a pain to do those arcs in CM2 compared to CM1.

[c3k]

Ricroma,

Send me a PM if you're interested in a PBEM guided playthrough.

Ken