Brain-dead TacAI?

[Chris Ferrous]

Also:-

1) Did you know the M8 existed before it appeared, i.e. had some of your infantry seen it coming?

2) Did the enemy know where your Pumas were, perhaps having spotted them with infantry?

3) Were your Pumas buttoned up or did they button up when the M8 appeared?

[mjkerner]

The M8's = 4 Veteran, 4 Regulars, if I counted correctly. That might explain why they kicked my ass when I played this scenario!

[76mm]

Also:-

1) Did you know the M8 existed before it appeared, i.e. had some of your infantry seen it coming?

2) Did the enemy know where your Pumas were, perhaps having spotted them with infantry?

3) Were your Pumas buttoned up or did they button up when the M8 appeared?

The M8 came around a corner and I don't think that either side knew the other was there. Pumas unbuttoned. If the Pumas were green and the M8 veteran, maybe its not crazy, although the fact that the M8 didn't miss at all still seems a bit much...

[Guest]

An M8 scooting up behind a pair of green covered-arc Pumas (who you essentially told "look over there... don't be looking over here where that M8 will be") and getting off a few shots without them instantly knowing where the shooter was, spinning around, spotting him, and responding... that's "brain dead TacAI"?

That's some hyperbole you've got there. And it's anecdotal. If you think this is actually a bug, give us saved games to work with please.

[jurpo]

Yeah it would be nice to have some more feeling in the AI, I'd like to see it panic more and just fire off at anything it could see to try and survive.

I saw something like this just a few minutes ago, albeit with infantry rather than an AC or a tank.

I was taking out a wooden MG bunker from behind with two glider infantry teams; one team got in position first and started lobbing grenades at the bunker. The half-team in the bunker hunkered down for a moment, but then decided to charge out like berserkers, MP40s blazing and potato mashers flying!

As I had messed up during the command phase, 2/3 of the other glider infantry team I had assaulting the bunker managed to come to the spot only after the bunker inhabitants had wiped out four guys from the first team, suppressed the rest and long since escaped unscathed. Perhaps things had been different if I had had enough firepower present to wipe them out at the bunker entrance, but alas no.

Ok, I did yell at the screen when that minute was unfolding, but gotta admit it was a pretty cool scene to see despite the disappointing results!

[Battlefront.com]

Sounds to me like a typical (I don't mean that negatively) misapplication of expectations to what the game is doing. As has been pointed out, there are pretty good reasons why this engagement went the way it went. We could easily change the TacAI to engage within 1 second of something coming into view, 100% of the time all the time no matter what the situation is. But that would be... realistic? Good lord no it wouldn't be! So the TacAI is painfully coded, tested, tweaked, retested, recoded, etc. to get us the extremely complex and reasonably realistic behavior that is seen in the game now. Perfect? No, but there is no such thing.

I've only skimmed this thread, but I think it's asking a lot of ANY crew to know where an incoming round is coming from without them already having a visual on the firing unit. Green units locked into Cover Arcs in the wrong direction is just about the worst situation for the Pumas possible. Er, except being Conscripts

Don't forget that crew Morale can get in the way of optimal behavior too.

Sooooo... I don't see a problem with the game, only with the expectations. A slight tweak to expectations should fix the problem

Steve

[RockinHarry]

I've checked the scenario and was surprised that both of the relevant Pumas were green, which is presumably part of the problem, although I don't know how experienced the M8 was. Unless it was elite, I still find it strange that it could get off five shots--all hits--without either Puma getting off a single shot.

That´s what I meant in my previous post. So the general outcome of actions with green vs. veteran is well within reasonable parameters, but the "fault" is making the Puma crews "green". I have serious doubts that Pumas would be trusted to green, instead to regulars (or better) since it´s a specialized branch (reccon) and the AFV´s as such were rather scarce.

I´d load the scenario in the editor, change the Pumas to regular (or better) and then retry, expecting somewhat more "realistic" results.

Anybody remember CMX1 "gun/tank optics rating system", where certain experience level crews can´t use their hardware properly?

[Battlefront.com]

One point raised here is worthy of special attention. When playing against the AI you never know what it can see. This is one of the beautiful things about our Relative Spotting model in CMx2. Not only that, you can't even be sure what your units can see unless you select it. Just seeing something, with no unit selected or a different unit selected, doesn't mean anything. Too often I see people making assumptions about who saw what and when, then watching the discussion unfold and those assumptions turn out to be wrong. Or at least unprovable.

It's also not always possible to know what your unit "thinks" when there's a particular action. Just because the player sees a round sailing towards one of his units doesn't mean his unit sees the round. And even if it does, know where it's coming from.

As for self preservation... it's always a tricky thing. As people have stated there's really no good answer. And there isn't in real life, either. There's plenty of 1st hand accounts of trained and experienced soldiers acting sub optimally in situations where there was a pretty clear (from an outsider's perspective) optimal response. It's just the way things go. It explains how 2nd Pz Division's Aufklärungs elements were wiped out without hardly firing a shot back. It explains Villers Bocage. It explains Audie Murphy. It explains a lot of things. Optimal and robotic precision of the TacAI would not do justice to the battlefield.

Therefore, as long as the reactions are generally fine we're not going to be upset about outliers. Provided they are outliers. And given the hundreds of thousands of engagements you guys have collectively experienced, I think it's pretty safe to say that things like what started this thread out are either explainable or at least understandable, not a problem with the game.

Steve

[sburke]

and to be frank, it is that variation on behavior that really makes the game. Knowing your units really well, their experience, morale, current state, ammo consumption are all really necessary to get the most out of them. Knowing if they are getting fragile and aren't likely to do well if surprised or confronted at short range all have to go into your decision making process. If you have a Green Puma, it needs to be in a position which will give it good spotting opportunity as well as time to react.

And then every now and then one of your units will somehow perform way above what you expect while another just doesn't react quick enough or gets hit by a stray round it never saw. I have had that happen to the same unit in a battle. One minute Herr Probst is the hero of hill 144 after single handedly driving off a couple enemy squads and a few minutes later he is down from a round from a firefight he wasn't even a participant in while he was fiddling around getting some more ammo.

Damn I love this game.

[Battlefront.com]

As someone who LOVED to play CMBB with Conscript Romanians... I must say I agree

Steve

[76mm]

An M8 scooting up behind a pair of green covered-arc Pumas (who you essentially told "look over there... don't be looking over here where that M8 will be") and getting off a few shots without them instantly knowing where the shooter was, spinning around, spotting him, and responding... that's "brain dead TacAI"?

Where on earth did you get the idea that it scooted up BEHIND the Pumas? I made very clear that the M8 scooted through the covered arc and stopped just on the far side of it?

I thought it was kind of obvious, but I'll go on the record that the M8 pulled up right in front of both Pumas.

Sorry, I don't think it is hyberbole. Sure the green Pumas explain part of it, but I'm still not convinced things are working like they should.

[76mm]

I've only skimmed this thread, but I think it's asking a lot of ANY crew to know where an incoming round is coming from without them already having a visual on the firing unit. Green units locked into Cover Arcs in the wrong direction is just about the worst situation for the Pumas possible. Er, except being Conscripts

Lots of incorrect information about the situation in your post: both crews had visuals on the M8 because it pulled right in front of them in an open field. They should have seen the moving M8 long before it saw them.

Also, the covered arc was not "in the wrong direction" it was simply too narrrow. The M8 drove left to right through the covered arc and stopped just outside its right edge. This is hardly the "worst situation for the Pumas possible".

I've already said that green Pumas and a veteran M8 probably accounts for a lot of the issue, but people should address the facts presented instead of pretending that the M8 appeared "behind" the Pumas, in the "wrong direction", etc.

It also seems very odd to me that the Pumas are green, but that is a scenario design issue, so sort of off topic.

[Guest]

Where on earth did you get the idea that it scooted up BEHIND the Pumas? I made very clear that the M8 scooted through the covered arc and stopped just on the far side of it?

I thought it was kind of obvious, but I'll go on the record that the M8 pulled up right in front of both Pumas.

I'm not "pretending" anything, referencing your message to Steve, I just misread your post. My fault. Going on about "pretending" - making some drastic and fantastic assumptions about my motivations - isn't making me want to continue this conversation, though. Consider the fact that you *want* us to read your posts. That doesn't mean you need to bow and beg, but... assume we're not being jerks, at least.

Now, "just on the far side" of a covered arc and "outside" a covered arc mean precisely the same thing. As do, for our purposes, "behind" the Pumas and "outside the spotting zone" of the Pumas. The Pumas weren't looking for the M8. The M8 had the element of surprise. Surprise is a great way to, say, shoot somebody before they can traverse a turret and engage you.

So the M8 drove *through* the covered arc without being engaged. "Zipped" through the CA, in fact. From behind a corner. And engaged them both before they could turn their turrets. What do you think should have happened differently? Note that this isn't some sort of rhetorical attack question, I actually want to know.

Sorry, I don't think it is hyberbole. Sure the green Pumas explain part of it, but I'm still not convinced things are working like they should.

Even if somehow this *was* a TacAI bug or problem of some kind saying the darned thing is "brain dead" is hyperbole. You know very well the TacAI works in most situations, or you wouldn't have spotted this as a difference to post about. It's like making a post with the title "The graphics are awful crap!!" and what you really mean is that bridges don't look very good on sunny mornings between 11:40 and 11:55 AM.

[LemuelG]

Pumas should not have been used in any kind of static overwatch with their paper-thin armour (only just enough on it's flanks to stop 7.92mm AP ammo from >30m, the frontal plate could resist 20mm AP). A tactical bungle - own it rather than blaming the game because an obvious error came back to bite you.

And I think there is no point complaining that your unit would not ignore your ordered arc - again, only one person to blame for that (the person who set the faulty arc).

[Wiggum]

I've only skimmed this thread, but I think it's asking a lot of ANY crew to know where an incoming round is coming from without them already having a visual on the firing unit.

And i always thought that this is what happens most of the time in CMx2 (maybe in CMx1 even worse...i dont know ) !

As soon as i start shooting at a enemy unit they know the position of my guys (who are shooting at them).

Although i can remember at least one firefight where i could not see who was shooting at my guys...

I know, if it would be 100% realistic and your soldiers ingame would need 30min to find out who is shooting from where...it would be no fun at all.

Can you maybe explain a bit more how this is done by the game ?

[sburke]

And i always thought that this is what happens most of the time in CMx2 (maybe in CMx1 even worse...i dont know ) !

As soon as i start shooting at a enemy unit they know the position of my guys (who are shooting at them).

Although i can remember at least one firefight where i could not see who was shooting at my guys...

I know, if it would be 100% realistic and your soldiers ingame would need 30min to find out who is shooting from where...it would be no fun at all.

Can you maybe explain a bit more how this is done by the game ?

Get your troops to swap out those flourescent pink uniforms.

Seriously though I am in a pbem right now and my opponent in chatting the turn up in email mentioned they had a soldier shot, but couldn't tell where the shot came from. It isn't automatic that a firing unit is spotted, even when you are taking damage. In fact taking a hit can decrease your units situational awareness and contribute to it's inability to spot who is doing the shooting - cowering for example.

[76mm]

Pumas should not have been used in any kind of static overwatch with their paper-thin armour (only just enough on it's flanks to stop 7.92mm AP ammo from >30m, the frontal plate could resist 20mm AP). A tactical bungle - own it rather than blaming the game because an obvious error came back to bite you.

And I think there is no point complaining that your unit would not ignore your ordered arc - again, only one person to blame for that (the person who set the faulty arc).

Um, at this point in the scenario, the only units I have are the three Pumas, and they are being attacked by M8s and jeeps. Sorry, but I don't see the "obvious error" or "tactical bungle"--what do you suggest that I should have done?

As to the covered arc: I should have made it a bit wider, but it was pointed in the right direction. Sure, I didn't realize that the Puma would ignore anything outside of the arc, even though the target had passed through the covered arc, stopped right in front of the Puma, and started firing on it.

[76mm]

It isn't automatic that a firing unit is spotted, even when you are taking damage. In fact taking a hit can decrease your units situational awareness and contribute to it's inability to spot who is doing the shooting - cowering for example.

The firing unit was a vehicle which moved into an open field right in front of both both Pumas, it was not a matter of some infantry unit sneaking up and opening fire.

[sburke]

The firing unit was a vehicle which moved into an open field right in front of both both Pumas, it was not a matter of some infantry unit sneaking up and opening fire.

I understand that, I was referring back to the previous post though and it wasn't specifying that. It was talking generally about being spotted as soon as his units opened fire.

In regards to your specific situation all I know is what is going back and forth in the thread. That the units were green versus veteran units was enough for me to think the results were not outside the realm of possible, even probable alternatives. The reaction times for Green units can be really bad.

[76mm]

As do, for our purposes, "behind" the Pumas and "outside the spotting zone" of the Pumas. The Pumas weren't looking for the M8. The M8 had the element of surprise. Surprise is a great way to, say, shoot somebody before they can traverse a turret and engage you.

So the M8 drove *through* the covered arc without being engaged. "Zipped" through the CA, in fact. From behind a corner. And engaged them both before they could turn their turrets. What do you think should have happened differently? Note that this isn't some sort of rhetorical attack question, I actually want to know.

First, I don't understand at all why you think that just outside the covered arc is the same thing as behind the Puma, especially when the M8 drove right through the covered arc and stopped right in front of the Puma? How exactly did the M8 have the element of surprise?

What do I think should have happened differently? I think that two stationary armored vehicles overwatching an area, should have been able to get off at least one shot before a vehicle pulled up right in front of them and peppered them with shot, without missing even once. Is that unreasonable?

Even if somehow this *was* a TacAI bug or problem of some kind saying the darned thing is "brain dead" is hyperbole. You know very well the TacAI works in most situations, or you wouldn't have spotted this as a difference to post about. It's like making a post with the title "The graphics are awful crap!!" and what you really mean is that bridges don't look very good on sunny mornings between 11:40 and 11:55 AM.

Actually, I DON'T know that the TacAI works in most situations, as this is one of the first games I've played in CMBN. Given that the Pumas were green, I can see how they could have been slow to fire, but I still don't think that the M8 should have been able to get off five shots without missing and the Pumas got off exactly zero shots despite being stationary and overwatching the area.

[bodkin]

The M8 wasn't in reverse slope to the Pumas was it? Sometimes what looks like a perfectly good target can be spotted but is in just enough of a depression in the landscape to prevent the TACAI from firing.

[womble]

Now, "just on the far side" of a covered arc and "outside" a covered arc mean precisely the same thing.

In all circumstances? For all units? Is it my imagination that 10m CAs seem to keep infantry squads from firing on 'threatening' targets 100m away where 90m [distances for illustrative purposes only - Ed]ones don't?

Note that this isn't some sort of rhetorical attack question, I actually want to know.

Ditto. It was something I thought I'd gotten a handle on.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Should a unit ignore a SPOTTED enemy unit that is firing at it if that enemy unit is outside a covered arc?

I think that is a valid question. You can say the OP made a mistake by giving too narrow a covered arc, or giving any cover arc at all, but that does not mean that it is realistic for a unit to exhibit that level of disregard for it's own life.

[MOSwas71331]

As for self preservation... it's always a tricky thing. As people have stated there's really no good answer. And there isn't in real life, either. There's plenty of 1st hand accounts of trained and experienced soldiers acting sub optimally in situations where there was a pretty clear (from an outsider's perspective) optimal response. It's just the way things go. It explains how 2nd Pz Division's Aufklärungs elements were wiped out without hardly firing a shot back. It explains Villers Bocage. It explains Audie Murphy.

Steve

What I'd like to know is why my US soldiers always act like Private Slovik and never like Audie Murphy.

[JonS]

Should a unit ignore a SPOTTED enemy unit that is firing at it if that enemy unit is outside a covered arc?

Yes. Otherwise; what's the point of a CA?