What I think

[Battlefront.com]

This board has always reminded me of the emperor with no clothes.

And you are the type of poster that reminds me that some people are so self centered, egotistical, and generally clueless that they can't conceive of any other opinion having validity but their own. All opinions to the contrary are, therefore, to be ridiculed and scorned. Nice!

Let's look at the difference between your rant and my response. I never once challenged you about your opinions. You don't like CM:BN? Fine, I don't really give hoot. There's billions of people that don't like it, so why should I get all depressed that you're one of them? Or are you saying that I should find your personal opinion more important than all others? Why yes you are

What I did challenge you on was your factual errors and opinions based on those errors. I'm well within my rights to do that. To use your Emperor claim, it's akin to you being blind or in another room and claiming the Emperor has no clothes on, when in fact he does. You might not like the look of the clothes, but that's not the same thing. Confuse the two, as you have, and it's you who looks foolish.

I played the demo 3 times.

Ah! Then I guess you're an expert. Which explains why your observations and conclusions were so well informed.

On 2 different occasions my tank got shot repeatedly by a tank on a hill, but could not return fire because it was "reverse slope" for return fire. So my tank just dicked around elevating its gun over and over until it died. And multiple rifle squads kept running out of houses I put them in, so they could hide behind them, then I would tell them to run back in, and then would run out again. I find it hard to believe that I am the only one to notice this.

It's always very comical that someone thinks they are the only one to notice a major problem instead of considering, even for a second, that the reason for that is there isn't a problem.

And you guys seriously like the instantaneous movement? I remember people complaining about why driving down a twisty road should not add huge delay, but I hardly recall people demanding troops move immediately upon the ubermind thinking of it.

Then you don't do much reading here. There has been a VERY vigorous debate ever since the first time it appeared as a feature. At first the debate was about getting rid of it, but now that we don't have it the debate is about reinstalling it. Your ignorance about these debates reinforces, and your dismissal of their value without considering them, is quite educational.

I have no idea whether the C&C is new and super improved. What used to be a simple process to determine whether a unit is within control radius now requires multiple clicks and looks in multiple places. Not an improvement.

First, you cited the removal of a bit of UI as a removal of "depth". That was clearly a statement that was factually incorrect and borne of ignorance. Now you are trying to cover your flawed position with more flawed statements. One click is all that's necessary. And of course there's more than one place to look for information since the DEPTH of the feature doesn't lend itself to the extremely simplisitic binary system of CMx1.

And your leader thinks the game is not being reviewed because BFC does not spend enough money on advertising? Seriously? Derek Smart ring any bells?

Ah, Derek Smart... a favorite of many. So, oh great sage of wisdom, why do YOU think that game reviewers aren't out there savaging Combat Mission with scathing reviews like they did of Derek Smart's ill fated game?

Well, I'll give you credit where credit is due. Your post are at least internally consistent.

;1311522']What i don´t get: Why are reviews important to people who already have a strong opinion on the game based on the demo?

Reviews are far less important today as they once were. It's yet another reason we don't really care too much about reviews, good or (as Thomm pointed out) not so good. They seem to have very little effect on our sales. Spending money on advertising just to get more is a poor use of our resources.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Regarding the reviews. I just checked the website of my former favorite gaming magazine PC Games, and all CM related reviews pointed to the websites of the retail partners of the CM games, not BFC.

Since CM:BN is not in retail yet, perhaps this is why there is no review there.

True, but only in the indirect sense. To be in retail you have to prove to the retailers that you're promoting your game. And that means advertising. Which means by definition a retail game has advertising and therefore is more likely to have ads in the primary games magazines. Which, then, in turn means you're going to get a review.

Not all publications behave this way, either past or present, but it's pretty widespread.

They gave CM:AK a 61 %, by the way, with the remark that BFC should ditch the "antiquated" CMx1 engine and start over.

Heh... according to some these sorts of reviews were a figment of our imagination.

well, you said command delays would be brought back with CMBN and you appeared to have a positive opinion about command delays. this change regarding command delays is somewhat surprising but naturally not something totally unheard of.

for what it's worth i don't recall seeing much opposition to the delays in those threads, but perhaps that's just blissfull senility on my part.

I don't know about the senility aspect, but your take on this is definitely not very accurate. Let me summarize the way it really is:

There's been opposition, sometimes extremely "violent", against the Command Delay system as we implemented it in CMx1. This goes back to the very first day people experienced it. The arguments since CM:SF came out are identical, but now of course the context is different because we switched which side "got their way".

I don't want to rehash all the arguments against it, but the crux of the arguments usually boils down to the lack of realism in how they were implemented. The twin arguments is Waypoints don't equate to command complexity and the concept of delay itself is flawed because the time to make bad decisions is often shorter than making good ones. Yet the Command Delay system imposes a blanket delay on all decisions equally, modified only by Waypoints (which don't reflect decision complexity at all).

Throughout these many, many debates nobody has come up with anything better. So one camp says "Command Delays are better than nothing" and the other side says "better to have nothing than a highly flawed Command Delay system".

And that's where we still find ourselves. We actively embrace the desirability to have some sort of speed penalty for unit decision making process, but we're very reluctant to go back to the CMx1 system. For now we continue to be counted amongst the camp which believes that, on balance, the game is more realistic without CMx1 style Command Delays than with them.

Will we put in some sort of alternative system? I hope so. But I don't know if or when that will happen because we'll need to have a better system in mind before we do, and we don't have one yet.

and yeah yeah, this is pretty useless discussion.

The original poster's concept of discussion is useless, I agree. But the ancillary discussions that come out of ill informed rants are sometimes quite interesting.

Steve

[MikeyD]

Non-geriatric CMx2 players who have never had the opportunity to play one of the old game engine titles should hunt down a CMx1 demo and give it a whirl. Just as a reference point to these discussions. The last time I touched a CMx1 title it reminded me of nothing so much as that South Park episode where the US and Canada go to war. Fond nostalgia for the old game could only take me so far and I soon quit out. CMx2 has spoiled me.

[Kuderian]

And multiple rifle squads kept running out of houses I put them in, so they could hide behind them, then I would tell them to run back in, and then would run out again. I find it hard to believe that I am the only one to notice this.

I imagine the rifle squads are overriding your orders for self-preservation purposes eg. Scary enemy nearbye in LOS. This imho is one best things about CMx2,the troops telling their superior officers 'no way hose'!

[MikeyD]

telling their superior officers 'no way hose'!

If the troops were Mexican that would be "No way José", if they were Canadian it would be "No way, hoser."

[yapma]

And you are the type of poster that reminds me that some people are so self centered, egotistical, and generally clueless that they can't conceive of any other opinion having validity but their own.

The leader is clinically disturbed. Witness the bizarre hotkey scheme that his underlings are afraid to discuss anymore for fear of encouraging a full blown freak out.

Good luck, Derek.

[Erwin]

"If the troops were Mexican that would be "No way José", if they were Canadian it would be "No way, hoser."

And if they were from Indiana, that would be "no way hoosier"(?)

[noxnoctum]

Personally I wish they'd spent a lot less time on graphics. Any time spent on graphics is time taken away from time spent on gameplay features, like armor cover arc, better AI, less LOS issues, pause for RT, tcp-ip wego, etc etc etc Who plays wargames for graphics?

And I actually prefer the new command and control indicators, makes sense for this engine.

[MOSwas71331]

It was funny for half a year but lately I find all these Moaning Posts of The Returning CMBO Deserter Zombies just annoying.

I find these "Zombie" posts interesting and seek them out, because I'd like to understand why I loved CMBO-CMBB-CMAK and hate CM:BN. As I've said repeatedly in this forum, I loved CMBO from the first time I played the demo. I keep hoping I'll read a post that will somehow result in me enjoying CM:BN.

I certainly wasn't a great player and lost more often than I won, whether my opponent was the AI or I was playing by email. But winning or losing didn't matter much; either way I enjoyed the game and seeing what would happen as the units I "commanded" engaged the units controlled by the other side. As (approximately) I said in another post and thread, "With CMBO-CMBB-CMAK I always felt I had a chance. With CM:BN I feel I have no chance."

[ChrisND]

I find these "Zombie" posts interesting and seek them out, because I'd like to understand why I loved CMBO-CMBB-CMAK and hate CM:BN. As I've said repeatedly in this forum, I loved CMBO from the first time I played the demo. I keep hoping I'll read a post that will somehow result in me enjoying CM:BN.

I say this completely without sarcasm or ill intentions: if you aren't enjoying the game after this length of time, maybe you need to find something else to do with your time. When I find a game I don't like (and there's plenty of them), I move on and find something I do enjoy. What I don't do is waste time on something I don't enjoy.

[Sixxkiller]

The leader is clinically disturbed. Witness the bizarre hotkey scheme that his underlings are afraid to discuss anymore for fear of encouraging a full blown freak out.

Good luck, Derek.

What bizarre hotkeys scheme is this that we are afraid to discuss? Is it the hotkey scheme where you come, post drivel, get beat down on it, and go to something else? Maybe you can try Ctrl+Alt+Del before you post next time. If it doesnt work the way you desire, repeat until you get the exact result you expect.

As for Derek Smart, I believe both he and Steve are still making better games than you.

[MOSwas71331]

I say this completely without sarcasm or ill intentions: if you aren't enjoying the game after this length of time, maybe you need to find something else to do with your time. When I find a game I don't like (and there are plenty of them), I move on and find something I do enjoy. What I don't do is waste time on something I don't enjoy.

That may be how you operate. Obviously, that's not how I operate. When I start reading a book, I almost always finish it. I rarely walk out of a movie. I really enjoyed the first round of CM games, and I WANT to enjoy CM:BN.

I also don't spend time each day trying "Road to Berlin", which I have not yet won against the AI in perhaps a dozen tries ending with my Cease Fire after no more than 15 game minutes and suffering excessive US casualties. My total time spent playing CM:BN is maybe 100 hours. (That's a guesstimate which may differ from other guesstimates I've posted.) With CMBO-CMBB-CMAK, (for other than the first turn) I needed perhaps ten or fifteen minutes to complete the "giving orders" phase. I spent the great bulk of my time replaying turns to see exactly what happened in each location I found interesting. In CM:BN I need a lot of time just to micromanage each unit on each turn, although (according to the posts I've read and Utube videos I've seen) others do this much more quickly.

[Medex]

The leader is clinically disturbed. Witness the bizarre hotkey scheme that his underlings are afraid to discuss anymore for fear of encouraging a full blown freak out.

Good luck, Derek.

Thanks, good luck to you too Derek.

Istanbul, turkey .. wow that would be a pretty place to live. The architecture is amazing.

btw.. i still play cmbb.. at work.. ssssssshhh don't tell the boss. I like the new stuff too. Oh well this thread goes to show you can't please everybody. Life goes on.

[Broadsword56]

It's so disappointing to see the negative tone that seems to have swept over these CMBN boards in just the last several weeks. All the threads that had so much useful and constructive dialogue about mapping, tactics, war stories, etc., have gone quiet as the ranters and haters crashed the party. Those of us who love the game are just probably busy playing the hell out of it, and not as motivated to post. And those with lives to live aren't going to hang around here to rebut and argue the merits of the game every time another "this sux!" post pops up. It has seemed like a good community until recently, and the content on the boards (of which I've tried to contribute my share) is what keeps me coming back. But if I want to see squabbling and pettiness, I can get all I want from watching CNN and the politics on TV. I hope this passes and we can all get back to enjoying this great hobby again.

[Sixxkiller]

Steve has said before that the day you guys stop complaining is the day we go out of business. I am not a quote grog tho and he could have said something like did you know there are gangs on the reservation instead.

But Steve has no problem with you guys not liking certain parts of the game. Its just the manner of your presentations.

[vincere]

So no money, no reviews. Ooops... did I say that? I think it was supposed to be a secret, or somefink.

Steve

Nah, I don't think that it was too big a secret.

I thought Armchair General, Wargamer wrote Normandy in a positive light.

I think wargame circles know about it and the demo is fairly representative. Also, to check games out I'vefound that I increasingly look at gameplay and AARs on youtube, which has some excellent Normandy ones.

[yapma]

But Steve has no problem with you guys not liking certain parts of the game. Its just the manner of your presentations.

And what are you, the high priest fanbois, who speaks for God when God is too busy?

[George MC]

And what are you, the high priest fanbois, who speaks for God when God is too busy?

<Yawn>......

[von Kleist]

@ yapma,

I don't post that often, but you've provoked my interest! Even though I enthusiastically admit to being a HUGE fanboy of this game, I still must say, I agree with Broadsword. Your points of view may be valid, but the way you express them is downright poisonous. If you don't like this game, why do you bother posting on the forum? You add nothing constructive to the discussion. I'd at least like you to offer some alternatives if your going to bother to comment at all. I think "the leader" might appreciate that as well...

And what are you, the high priest fanbois, who speaks for God when God is too busy?

[Battlefront.com]

And what are you, the high priest fanbois, who speaks for God when God is too busy?

The only person who thinks their opinions are worth their weight in gold is you. The few "facts" you cited to support your opinion have been politely shown to be false. Your response? Personal attacks. I think it's pretty clear to anybody reading this forum that you've been treated far more fairly than anybody you have treated others.

As I said earlier, this is a pitiful repeat performance. Someone doesn't like the game, fine. I don't care. Someone misrepresents the facts, that's not a good thing to leave unchallenged.

To sum up... Yapma doesn't like CM:BN. He doesn't like me, or anybody who likes CM:BN. And he's not afraid to insult and debase anybody who disagrees with him instead of engaging in an honest discussion. Since this is in clear violation of the Forum rules, I am issuing a warning to Yapma to either observe the common rules of decency here or be banned for offensive and Trollish behavior. The choice is yours.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

@ yapma,

I don't post that often, but you've provoked my interest! Even though I enthusiastically admit to being a HUGE fanboy of this game, I still must say, I agree with Broadsword. Your points of view may be valid, but the way you express them is downright poisonous. If you don't like this game, why do you bother posting on the forum?

Because people who post like this do so for psychological reasons that have very, very little to do with whatever the topic is about. And it doesn't matter what is being discussed. For example, I posted on a tractor forum about something and some guy came on and said I should have bought "American". Specifically a John Deere. When it was pointed out that for the class of tractor being discussed the John Deeres are made in South Korea and India (these are facts). They are also more prone to failure and yet are more expensive. The guy came back and said he didn't understand why everybody attacks him when he suggests to buy American made stuff. And so it went on from there.

If ever there is a reason to lose hope in Humanity's future existence, it can be found on the Internet discussion areas for sure!

Steve

[MikeyD]

So that's where Steve has been for the past few weeks, he's been off playing Farmville!

[yapma]

The only person who thinks their opinions are worth their weight in gold is you. The few "facts" you cited to support your opinion have been politely shown to be false. Your response? Personal attacks. I think it's pretty clear to anybody reading this forum that you've been treated far more fairly than anybody you have treated others.

As I said earlier, this is a pitiful repeat performance. Someone doesn't like the game, fine. I don't care. Someone misrepresents the facts, that's not a good thing to leave unchallenged.

To sum up... Yapma doesn't like CM:BN. He doesn't like me, or anybody who likes CM:BN. And he's not afraid to insult and debase anybody who disagrees with him instead of engaging in an honest discussion. Since this is in clear violation of the Forum rules, I am issuing a warning to Yapma to either observe the common rules of decency here or be banned for offensive and Trollish behavior. The choice is yours.

Steve

Please Steve.

You engage in more personal attacks then anyone on this board. Go back and read your prior posts in this thread alone. I am just a guy who really liked the first games you made, and find the second version frustrating (are my troops in C&C? Too much trouble to figure it out, and I cannot even tell if it matters. Why can't my tank shoot back at the enemy who is blasting it over and over? Why do my troops hide insist on hiding in the craters behind the buildings? Why can't I see over that wall? Why can't my tank drive over that shrubbery?)

I think CM:BN is a good game. It could even be a great game if the frustrations are ever resolved. You are right, I don't like you. I think you are a thin-skinned hypocrite. I also think there are cult like elements at work (you see my followers -- the outsiders, they hate me, and they hate you too). There are plenty of people on this board who can rationally respond to criticisms or impressions. You are just not one of them.

[Chops]

So that's where Steve has been for the past few weeks, he's been off playing Farmville!

Yeah Steve, welcome back to the maelstrom! Please don't go back to farming however, we missed you.

As you pointed out, these types of posts are generally for psychological reasons such as a play for attention due to lonliness and isolation, and have little to do with the stated topic. So if we can all keep this in mind, and not respond, or just respond with compassion, then it will avoid all this back and forth stuff.

[von Kleist]

Yeah Steve, welcome back to the maelstrom! Please don't go back to farming however, we missed you.

As you pointed out, these types of posts are generally for psychological reasons such as a play for attention due to lonliness and isolation, and have little to do with the stated topic. So if we can all keep this in mind, and not respond, or just respond with compassion, then it will avoid all this back and forth stuff.

Wise advice, Chops, especially since I've never seen Steve even come close to a personal attack. And I read all his posts to learn more about how the game is designed! I'm going to take your advice and not even look at this thread again. Back to Road to Montebourg......