Tread Head Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Arg.... about at wits end... Vet paratroopers in the woods... waiting with cover arcs on.... they see nothing... then BOOM, one of the two teams are dead (The moving through the woods tank sees 2 guys with a zook in the woods in the prone position before they see him!!!!) Not possible.... ridiculous. Not seeing a TANK at 25 yards and they see you? Then the other teams sees the tank at last and fires... guess what they miss, or sorry hit a tree , yea that 25 yard shot must of been hard... Then the tank rotates over and BOOM one shot they are both dead. Tanks are broken in this game.... Tank vrs tank or tank verses inf, it don't matter... They should re-release the game with all the tanks stripped out of the programming... be a better game. This game is a pitiful at times... Between all the bugs (map switching, not saving pbem files) and stupid spotting and firing behavior of troops I am about done with it.... Not to mention the amazing accuracy of tank gunners (has anyone ever even seen a tank miss when firing at another tank?) I was so pumped about this game but now so utterly disappointed. I think I may be going back to CMAK... Just because it has better graphics doesn't mean it is a better game... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Tanks are broken in this game.... Tank vrs tank or tank verses inf, it don't matter... They should re-release the game with all the tanks stripped out of the programming... be a better game. This game is a pitiful at times... Well to be honest most of my battles have been primarily Infantry oriented, however I have successfully ambushed tanks multiple times. Under the screenshot thread I even had a recent one where a tank darn near ran over one of my troops in the open and I still got in first strike. I have also been on the receiving end from both my opponents in situations where I have tried to take the offensive (most of my PBEMs have had me as the defender). Not saying this is not happening as it is obviously driving you nuts, but my experience couldn't be more different. Between all the bugs (map switching, not saving pbem files) and stupid spotting and firing behavior of troops I am about done with it.... Not to mention the amazing accuracy of tank gunners (has anyone ever even seen a tank miss when firing at another tank?) I have experienced none of those issues regarding map switching or saving pbems. I know that doesn't help you but it at least says there should be an answer, it may be just hard to isolate if it is a specific hardware or OS related issue. Regarding tanks missing, there is a video AAR that was just posted showing quite a bit of that. I have seen quite a bit of it myself, in fact if the shot is distant and the target is moving most first rounds have been misses in my games. I think Broadsword and Von Kleist can attest to the same for their side as well in our PBEMs. I was so pumped about this game but now so utterly disappointed. I think I may be going back to CMAK... Just because it has better graphics doesn't mean it is a better game... Honestly really sorry to hear that. If you have followed any of the stuff I have posted in the screenshot thread, you must think me a mindless lunatic, but my experience so far has been quite the opposite. The game engine and TAC AI has left me in awe and I have plenty of material to show for it - really I don't dream this stuff up. It isn't just better, it is better by far. * *note subjective opinion not to be confused with "facts". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macisle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Most battles seem very realistic, but from time to time, odd things do happen that are jarring and which seem impossible vs real life. I actually ran a few test QBs (not enough repetitions to warrant posting a new thread, though) to test zooks vs tanks and also ATs vs tanks. In my zook test (RT SP, me as Amis), I had a -1 buttoned Panther round a road corner and spot a zook team hiding behind a hedge. Despite their cover arc, it saw then first and took them out. It then went off road and spotted a second team behind some trees nearby. Again it spotted first and got in the first shot, taking them out. Later, the same tank spotted a third team in open ground at 3 o' clock and took them out, too. Again, the team didn't see the tank (it had rounded a corner with a wall blocking the team part of the way), despite a cover arc right on it. This all happened in about a minute BTW. It was like watching the terminator at the police station. My jaw dropped. Open ground is one thing (still, the team was spotted and killed before it saw the Panther, even though it was in their covered arc!), but men hiding behind hedges/trees being spotted first by a moving buttoned (-1) Panther at an angle to them is very hard to justify. In my AT test, a Panther spotted 3 ATs hiding in light woods and took them out before they could manage a shot. Possible, I suppose (they didn't fire because they were hiding), but it all happened so fast, I was pretty shocked. Again--like a terminator with special vision and one shot kills. One thing that I've noticed two or three times now is a tank rounding a building corner and spotting AT guns on the other side of the corner first and killing them before the AT can see the tank. It seems like the MG in the tank sees the crew and starts picking them off. IIRC in all three cases, the tank never fired its main gun, it would just stop with the front edge of the tank peeking out from around the building corner and start cutting down the AT crew. In all three cases, the AT never spotted the tank, despite a cover arc right on it. Again, these things don't happen all the time (the AT/tank corner thing might--dunno. The situation's never come up in normal play), and I haven't done scientific testing. But they DO happen occasionally, and some tweaking might be in order. Love the game. It's the bees knees. -Just wanted mention the above in response the OP. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cptcurt Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I've noticed these situations also. But when not using the cover arc I've been very successful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killkess Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Not to use the covered arc leads you to the nice situation in which the AT-assets open fire on every grunt it can see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tread Head Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Seems simple... TONE DOWN the spotting ability of tanks.... especially buttoned tanks. Did I mention that the MK4 in this battle was buttoned? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Not to mention the amazing accuracy of tank gunners (has anyone ever even seen a tank miss when firing at another tank?) Quite a few misses here...good stuff starts around the 3:00 mark. Mord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tread Head Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Regarding tanks missing, there is a video AAR that was just posted showing quite a bit of that. I have seen quite a bit of it myself, in fact if the shot is distant and the target is moving most first rounds have been misses in my games. I think Broadsword and Von Kleist can attest to the same for their side as well in our PBEMs. *note subjective opinion not to be confused with "facts". I watched a Panther one time see a Sherman, that was running full speed on the opposite side of the board, pivot 100 degrees, fire, almost before the pivot was over, direct hit.. boom. Absolute silliness. I also only play pbem.. I find the AI to be typical and boring... just to predictable and easy to beat. So, the pbem issues are very real to me.... These issues are also hitting my main opponent. I am running XP Pro 64bit and he is running Vista on the lower bit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tread Head Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Quite a few misses here...good stuff starts around the 3:00 mark. Mord. Dude, that is a HUGE map.... no wonder all the missing.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Tank spots a zook and kills it at 25m and that makes the game 'broken'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Dude, that is a HUGE map.... no wonder all the missing.... I think that is the point, what is the range that you are having issues with? At close range and flat trajectory, a hit may not be so unexpected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Tank spots a zook and kills it at 25m and that makes the game 'broken'? Hiding in the woods, Mikey. Buttoned, moving tank also in woods. 25m = ~80 feet. That distance provides a fair amount of concealment to two prone soldiers in your average Normandy woodland in summer. Maybe "broken" is too strong, but he has a point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I dont think the game is even close to being broken.But a zook team should spot a tank at 25yds.So what happened?Did he spot and not fire?or did he not spot at all.Two totally different issues.A few questions, was the tank outside the covered arc?What was the expereince level of the zook team?Was the zook team hiding?Im wondering if fear is modeled?Maybe troops just freeze in the kaos of war, just like Charlie Sheen did in Platoon when the Viet Cong was right in front of him and all he had to do was hit the claymore switches but he couldn't.Anyway I have seen enough to come to the conclusion that buttoned tank spotting in woods against infantry, especially teams or less, needs to be reduced.Based on sound alone infantry would always spot tanks and armored vehichles well before they would be spotted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 LOL yeah sound contacts are another issue, but I understand the reasoning for them not being in (now if only I couldn't hear fences being driven over no matter where it occurs on the map). In one of the posts of my last PBEM I had a Sherman teleport into within 20 meters of my infantry. At least that is how it appeared. Scotty beam this Sherman down to hill 146, aye aye cap'n! Considering they were in the middle of a firefight however I found it easier to accept. They were too busy surviving to listen for tanks especially in dense wooded terrain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkWGriswold Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 LOL yeah sound contacts are another issue, but I understand the reasoning for them not being in...I'm pretty sure sound contacts ARE in. At least, I think that's what Steve said before release. The strange thing is, we've got multiple people reporting (and backing up with screenshots) tanks "appearing" less than 50 feet from troops. Unless those troops have lost all their hearing from arty fire, I just don't see how that's possible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I'm pretty sure sound contacts ARE in. At least, I think that's what Steve said before release. The strange thing is, we've got multiple people reporting (and backing up with screenshots) tanks "appearing" less than 50 feet from troops. Unless those troops have lost all their hearing from arty fire, I just don't see how that's possible. I believe you are correct, I mis spoke. What I was thinking of was the discussion of actually not hearing sounds that from units you couldn't observe. My bad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Arg.... about at wits end... Vet paratroopers in the woods... waiting with cover arcs on.... they see nothing... then BOOM, one of the two teams are dead (The moving through the woods tank sees 2 guys with a zook in the woods in the prone position before they see him!!!!) Not possible.... ridiculous. Not seeing a TANK at 25 yards and they see you? Then the other teams sees the tank at last and fires... guess what they miss, or sorry hit a tree , yea that 25 yard shot must of been hard... Then the tank rotates over and BOOM one shot they are both dead. Tanks are broken in this game.... Tank vrs tank or tank verses inf, it don't matter... They should re-release the game with all the tanks stripped out of the programming... be a better game. This game is a pitiful at times... Between all the bugs (map switching, not saving pbem files) and stupid spotting and firing behavior of troops I am about done with it.... Not to mention the amazing accuracy of tank gunners (has anyone ever even seen a tank miss when firing at another tank?) I was so pumped about this game but now so utterly disappointed. I think I may be going back to CMAK... Just because it has better graphics doesn't mean it is a better game... I`ve set up a test scenario with a light forest ground tile (aprox. 100m X 100m) and a lot of different trees on it. I`ve set up one m1a1 bazooka team inside the forest with a cover arc towards the panzerIV. I`ve then put up a markIV H tank moving with hunt command towards the zook team through the woods. I`ve repeated the test 5 times and every time the zook team spotted the tank first and in 4 of 5 times killed it without the tank even seeing the zook team. in the fifths case the tank was hit and survived the hit. then he saw the team and killed it. i wasnt able to to recreate your situation. neither in the test nor in one of my pbems or normal games. I havent seen a rambo tank killing all zook teams either. the markIV inside my test was buttoned like you said. all crews had regular experience level etc. heres the save file from my test: http://www.2shared.com/file/Cao9BIPM/tes_wood_tank_zook.html (you can rerun the test simply by clicking at go) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Between all the bugs (map switching, not saving pbem files) and stupid spotting and firing behavior of troops I am about done with it.... Not to mention the amazing accuracy of tank gunners (has anyone ever even seen a tank miss when firing at another tank?) I think I may be going back to CMAK... I cannot repeat often enough that normal tank engagement ranges for late WW2 tanks are 800m + (normandy is simply a very special situation because of the bocage) for example a panther tank has a accuracy of nearly 100% for hitting targets under 1000m. sources: Germanys Panther Tank the Quest for Supremacy and Germanys TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics. Both books are from thomas jentz. you can also look up this site: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm here is a statement from the book: "The 8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56 was a very accurate gun capable of first round hits at over 1,000 meters - the Tiger I actually started first round killing at 1,200 meters, under combat conditions." CM2 is superiour and much more sophisticated than CM1 also when it comes to tank fighting ! For example CM1 doesnt even calculate at which angle the projecticle hits the tank. it just takes into account the thickness and the sloping of the armor but you can place your tank where ever you want, it has always the same protection level. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tread Head Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 Tank spots a zook and kills it at 25m and that makes the game 'broken'? No, a moving buttoned tank spots prone VET inf in the woods BEFORE the inf spots it..that BREAKS the game... Do you seriously want to debate this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tread Head Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 OK, fine... it was a "fluke"... SUPER tanks only happen once in awhile.. LOL How about what just happend in another battle I am playing... American squad on hunt orders in woods comes up on a buttoned Panther from the rear... sweet I think... They go prone and start throwing nades? Duh, they have 2 demo charges, do they use them? NOPE.... they rather toss nades and watch the tank slowly rotate its gun around... Is it really necessary to order Blast in a situation like this? So, I order Blast, is there a way to target the tank? NOPE.... just the area that is near him... I wonder what will happen? The move ended with the tank almost fully rotated around to be facing the grunts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tread Head Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 If you want the file email me...I named it Super Panzer.. Did I mention after killing the first zook team it drives up on a waiting M10 who puts a round penetrating into him? The Super Panzer doesn't even flinch.....he calmly stops rotates over and fires, destroying the M10. So, I assume then that AP and HE are not modeled? I mean earlier in that same turn the tank shot and blew up the zook team (must of been HE) then a few seconds later fires again blowing up the M10 (must of been AP) whom he didn't see until after been hit by it. Tanks will drive with a round in the tube... normally AP. If there is a target that requires the opposite it is quicker to fire the wrong round at the target then to try to reload. (at least this was army doctrine in the 1990 when I was a tanker. So, in the above scenario the tank either was combat loaded with HE when he blew up the zook team (AP rounds on troops are pretty worthless) then reloaded with AP, which makes no sense, after just finding grunts in the woods I know my TC would of ordered my to load more HE. So, if HE was loaded he destroyed the M10 with HE... possible but not likely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tread Head Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 I cannot repeat often enough that normal tank engagement ranges for late WW2 tanks are 800m + (normandy is simply a very special situation because of the bocage) for example a panther tank has a accuracy of nearly 100% for hitting targets under 1000m. sources: Germanys Panther Tank the Quest for Supremacy and Germanys TIGER Tanks - Tiger I and II: Combat Tactics. Both books are from thomas jentz. you can also look up this site: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm here is a statement from the book: "The 8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56 was a very accurate gun capable of first round hits at over 1,000 meters - the Tiger I actually started first round killing at 1,200 meters, under combat conditions." "Capable of" does not mean always will. Besides, on the firing range.. 100% no issues, but on the attack after moving... no way. Heck we missed some with an M1A1 at under a 1000 meters all the time. I would even accept 100% from a defending at less then 1000 meters if his target was stopped. Besides did you forget that the tanks we most often face are Mk4s? Not a 88 or 75 long.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wego McPbem Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 If you want the file email me...I named it Super Panzer.. Did I mention after killing the first zook team it drives up on a waiting M10 who puts a round penetrating into him? The Super Panzer doesn't even flinch.....he calmly stops rotates over and fires, destroying the M10. So, I assume then that AP and HE are not modeled? I mean earlier in that same turn the tank shot and blew up the zook team (must of been HE) then a few seconds later fires again blowing up the M10 (must of been AP) whom he didn't see until after been hit by it. Tanks will drive with a round in the tube... normally AP. If there is a target that requires the opposite it is quicker to fire the wrong round at the target then to try to reload. (at least this was army doctrine in the 1990 when I was a tanker. So, in the above scenario the tank either was combat loaded with HE when he blew up the zook team (AP rounds on troops are pretty worthless) then reloaded with AP, which makes no sense, after just finding grunts in the woods I know my TC would of ordered my to load more HE. So, if HE was loaded he destroyed the M10 with HE... possible but not likely. The game doesn't model what type of shell has been loaded, no. The type of shell to be used is decided at the moment of firing so you never have to worry about that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Those blind vets: where they 'Hiding', as in had they been given a "Hide" order? "Hiding" troops don't spot so well (except for the beetles and woodlice crawling through the grass roots), and are less likely to open fire on a target they do spot. I see first round misses at 'point blank' range all the freakin' time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 It does seem that sometimes tanks can spot unusually well. However, the times they spot so well versus normal spotting are hard to pin down. There's talk about that issue, but nothing definitive. Regarding the ammo loadout, that's been talked about a lot. The answer is that the round in the tube is whichever round is needed for the target. It is assumed that the crew has loaded a round. There are so many worms in the can of doctrine for loading the gun vs. what would MY crew load in the gun, that BF.C has programmed the tank to always have the "right" round ready. Think about it: most doctrine would have the default round be AP. After all, an enemy tank is USUALLY more of a threat than soft targets. Okay, fine. So you move your tank into the woods and start clearing out infantry. Hmm, do you REALLY want an armor piercing round to be loaded as soon as the tank stops spotting known infantry? Or, after shooting half a dozen HE rounds at infantry, while still in the woods, wouldn't HE in the tube make more sense than AP? The conundrum revolves around the IMMEDIATE tactical situation vs. doctrine. The crews should/would invoke the more appropriate tactical response rather than doctrine. Hence, the round in the tube morphs into whatever is most appropriate. A fudge, but it works well. After that round is fired, the reload delay and known target determine what will be loaded next and how long it will take. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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