Moving AT Guns: An exercise in frustration.

[ClarkWGriswold]

I'm currently in the middle of a PBEM game with American 76mm and 57mm AT guns as my primary defense. They worked well in their initial placement, but as the enemy has advanced I've found myself needing to shift their locations slightly to get a better view past trees and such. Unfortunately for me, my guns refuse to move. I've tried for turn after turn while my guns sit there, getting cut up by enemy tanks.

Late last night my frustration level peaked and I setup a test scenario to try to figure out how the hell these things are supposed to work. After an hour of messing with trucks and towed guns, I *still* can't figure it out!

Here's the problem: You've got a gun that's setup and deployed and you want it to move. Every other deployable unit in the game (machineguns, mortars) can simply be given a move order and it will pack up and move, then be able to re-deploy at the next waypoint (or some other waypoint down the line). AT guns apparently don't work this way. Perhaps they are supposed to, perhaps they are not... but they don't and it's confusing as hell.

When I issue a move order to a deployed gun it WILL NOT MOVE. It can rotate, but not move. If issued a move order the gun will just sit there and the order will never be fulfilled. So, I figured you must have to un-deploy the gun first, then move it. This also doesn't work. Or maybe it does. I'm not sure because it's not intuitive or reliable.

Here's a 57mm American AT gun. It's limbered (says so in the UI and the feet are together). You can plainly see that the "Deploy" action is not selected. I could easily move this gun anywhere I wanted, as long as it wasn't deployed.

Here's a 76mm American AT gun. It's NOT limbered, it is deployed. However, the "Deploy" action is also not selected here.

So, two guns in different states, but with the same action selected (or not selected, in this case). You can also see that the 76mm gun has a move order to the nearby truck. Even so, the gun sat for turn after turn without moving. I tried multiple combinations of deploy, then move. move, then deploy. move without deploying, etc. I never could get this gun to move OR attach to the truck. I had another identical gun that I was able to get to un-deploy and attach to a truck, but I honestly have no clue how I did it. And that really sucks in a time sensitive game where you can only issue orders once every minute.

This shot shows the "embark" icon when clicking a truck with a gun selected. Just the sight of this leads the player to believe that the gun will attach to the truck without any further action. But, as I've said, it doesn't seem to work.

So, can someone please explain how this is supposed to work? Are guns supposed to un-deploy and move when given a move order? If so, what conditions, if any, would prevent a gun from doing so (assuming no crew casualties). What effect, if any, is the deploy command supposed to do once the gun has already been deployed?

[Bartokomus]

Clark my only comment would be are you noting the pack up times? I think for the German 75mm Pak i was shocked to see the time was close to 5 minutes...

[Wego McPbem]

Move order will automatically make the gun pack up. The thing that seems to confuse people is that after giving the move order it takes minutes of packing up before they'll actually move. Can see from those screens that gun has a 6.3 minute packing up time so thats more than 6 turns of waiting until they actually start to move. As long as you see packing up in the soldier status on the left you know your order is being followed.

[Sgt Joch]

yes, you have to watch the "pack up times". I have moved guns, both hooking them up to trucks and redeploying them or just getting the crews to push them for short distances. Nothing happens until the time to pack up has elapsed and then they move.

to hook up to a truck, I always back up the truck as close as possible to the gun, otherwise, the crew will have to push the gun to the truck which can take a few more turns.

[LemoN]

The really frustrating part is when you want your gun to deploy on a specific spot...

Didn't really have many problems with getting them to move yet.

[ClarkWGriswold]

I do know that the pack-up time for these guns can be pretty long (the 76mm is 6.3 minutes!). I suppose the only way to know the gun is packing up and not just sitting there is the green crew action text in the bottom left. If that is the case, then the deploy/undeploy actions are more confusing than they need to be. If a gun is deployed (un-limbered) then the Deploy button should not be available. If a gun is being packed up due to being given a move order, it would be great if the UI showed that fact. Not a big deal for things that take 30 seconds, but for guns that take 6+ minutes you get no real feedback at all about what's happening.

I'll have to do some more testing tonight and see if simply waiting 7 or more minutes will allow the gun to move. Even so, the Deploy button needs to be addressed, IMO.

[Dietrich]

Is the sheer slowness of (limbered, fully crewed) AT guns regardless of terrain, suppression (or rather lack thereof), etc., due to the game engine's limitations? I know these guns are heavy (especially past the 50mm size) and that terrain is often poorly conducive to manhandling, but wouldn't a crew be able to move their AT gun over a short distance (say 20 meters) at least a little bit faster than a CMBN AT gun crew can, albeit thereby growing "Tired" or "Fatigued" rather quickly? Or does my supposition show signs of Hollywood-ization?

[Noltyboy]

And does it realy take so Ridiculously long to deploy and pack up? It makes the ability to use them nearly pointless in 90% percent of situations you might want to move them.

[hoolaman]

The movement speed is way too slow especially for small guns and even more especially for short moves. All guns that can be moved by hand should really be able to move 10 metres or so without "packing up". Smaller guns should be able to move at a running pace, terrain dependant.

Check out right at the start and at 2:41 in this video. Very quick moves and very quick deploying. Plenty of other relevant footage too. Not always conclusive evidence but the game is orders of magnitude slower than this.

I haven't spent too much time packing up ATGs in the game, but I did observe that it was easy to accidentally deploy the gun, which means it gets stuck in another 4 minute cycle.

[Statisoris]

AT guns change facing too slowly in game too.

[akd]

The movement speed is way too slow especially for small guns and even more especially for short moves. All guns that can be moved by hand should really be able to move 10 metres or so without "packing up". Smaller guns should be able to move at a running pace, terrain dependant.

Check out right at the start and at 2:41 in this video. Very quick moves and very quick deploying. Plenty of other relevant footage too. Not always conclusive evidence but the game is orders of magnitude slower than this.

I haven't spent too much time packing up ATGs in the game, but I did observe that it was easy to accidentally deploy the gun, which means it gets stuck in another 4 minute cycle.

There are no small guns in CMBN. Pak 36 is half the weight of even the Pak 38.

[hoolaman]

I know myself and five mates could push my old Ford Falcon down even a fairly rough dirt road at running pace and that weighs as much as a Pak 40 albeit on a stable four wheel base.

I don't doubt it would be tiring, but for emergency moves and quick rotations it is extremely plausible.

I think everything in the game is too slow, from deploying to packing up to rotating the base and even to slewing the gun, and there is plenty of video evidence to support this view.

[hoolaman]

I actually posted the wrong video before.

http://youtu.be/m9yecemugWo

The sequence I was talking about is where they unlimber the gun from the horses.

There's also a bit of some guys pushing an unlimbered gun down the road at 3:37.

[JonS]

All guns that can be moved by hand should really be able to move 10 metres or so without "packing up".

And then, if they want to move another 10m?

[Tarquelne]

I don't doubt it would be tiring, but for emergency moves and quick rotations it is extremely plausible.

As far as I can tell, the game has no way to distinguish between an "emergency" 3m shift and packing up for a ride across the map.

There are already generally two teams associated with ATGs - gun and ammo. Maybe a future title will model things in more detail. ATM the ammo guys seem pretty sprightly. I suspect they're not pulling their weight.

[sburke]

There are already generally two teams associated with ATGs - gun and ammo. Maybe a future title will model things in more detail. ATM the ammo guys seem pretty sprightly. I suspect they're not pulling their weight.

It's a Union gig, they aren't allowed to help. I think they're teamsters.

[Dadekster88]

When your order your men lugging the mortar or machine gun to run across a field they become tired and not as effective. Can you do it if circumstances demand it? Sure. Is it smart to do it all the time? No. I think that if you try to order an AT gun to be manhandled further than 10m or whatever arbitrary distance, it would simply exhaust your men. I don't know if the code would allow BFC to determine how far you can move it before exhaustion sets in (aka not gonna happen) but I would assume it would depend on what size/wieght etc you're trying to move.

Now whether that's feasible as far as coding etc I have no idea. For instance, what happens when half your crew is KIA? I would imagine certain pieces need a specific number of men to move at all?

[hoolaman]

And then, if they want to move another 10m?

20m it is then, good idea.

[JonS]

And then, if they want to move another 10m?

[JonS]

FWIW, I've several times moved a gun that weighs over 2000kg over distances in the hundreds of metres. Most recently as part of a team of about 20 people we shifted one something like 400m in about 8 minutes. It was on a sealed surface, with a few ups and downs. That was shattering. Another time I hauled a gun - again on a sealed surface - that weighs about 1200kg something like 2km, but I don't recall how long that took ... 30-45 mins maybe?

Of course ... that was clean fatigues, and there were no stores, and - most importantly - no ammunition. Really, we didn't move a capability, we were just shunting frigging heavy hunks of metal.

The times and speeds for moving guns in CM as a complete capability are pretty generous, I think.

[weapon2010]

It is quite obvious to me that At gun movement and placement could use some improvement.

[MikeyD]

Remember, obvious or not everything is tied to the underlying action square grid. Gun placement is like foxhole placement, you need them in just the right position for them to do exactly what they ought. Sure it would be nice to be able to move that gun 6 inches to the left (I've cussed and sweared at it enough while trying, myself) but then its not exactly corrresponding to the action square beneath it. Which mean you're back estimating, approximating, and abstracting again.

[Steiner14]

There are no small guns in CMBN. Pak 36 is half the weight of even the Pak 38.

RKT Otto Riehs described, that he couldn't make a Stellungswechsel (change of position) with his PaK40 during the soviet attack, because they were entrenched on a forward slope and the RSO was too far away on the reverse slope.

If the deploying would have taken so long, then the german Panzerjäger wouldn't have been able to fight the T34 at all (strongest available gun was the PaK 38 at that time). Extreme speed and surprise was the only factor that could compensate the missing calibre.

A fast change of the position was absolutely no problem with the PaK 38 for the excellent trained german crews (seconds vs. minutes).

I actually posted the wrong video before.

http://youtu.be/m9yecemugWo

The sequence I was talking about is where they unlimber the gun from the horses.

There's also a bit of some guys pushing an unlimbered gun down the road at 3:37.

Nice video. It also shows, that ATGs were used on streets without any cover. That was not because it took 5+ minutes to change the position.

FWIW, I've several times moved a gun that weighs over 2000kg over distances in the hundreds of metres.

Strawman argument.

Nobody is talking about taking a walk with an ATG. The complaints are that there are no emergency movements over relatively short distances even for smaller guns like the PaK 38, even with best ground conditions and the tremendous time it takes to deploy and the extremely slow turning time.

[JonS]

And then, if they want to move another 10m?

[LemoN]

And then, if they want to move another 10m?

Simple, code it in a way that only allows the emergency move if the gun team is rested or ready (maybe tiring?) and simply make it unavailable once the team is tired.

Similar to how fast works, just with more stamina drainage.