Holien Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 So I have sneaked a German A/C with 20mm Auto Canon behind 3 Shermans who are rear onto me. The turn stops and they are in superb position to unleash hail fire on the rears of those Yanks!!! So next turn I order it to fire on a Sherman and wait for the return file to watch the action unfold..... So the German Crew sit for a full minute and do not fire!!!! Is this a Bug or just that the system thinks that 20mm at 80mtr range will do nothing? Next minute I give it no fire or move orders and a Sherman turns and faces it but does not spot it. Again no fire and clear blue line to all three targets... This turn I have given it orders to pull back but the Sherman facing it will spot it as soon as it moves and good buy wonderful ambush!!! I have Videos and will do screen shots when I get a chance. So questions... Should 20mm be able to penetrate the rear of an American... (wait for it ..... tank) Even if it can not should the crew follow my orders and open up rather than sit there? Is this a bug or feature? From memory 20mm should be able to do a Sherman in the rear easy.... But my memory is going soft... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 There have been a number of reports of vehicles not opening fire on assigned targets. There has been speculation that it's to do with LOS/LOF mismatches (the commander can see the target fine, but there's something blocking the gun/gunner, so no fire takes place). Might there be such circumstances pertaining in this case? Do you have trees on and is the LOS clear of potential obstructions? Foliage can have "interesting" properties in defining LOS/LOF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 Just trying to get picture to post but looks clear and line bright blue. Will now check foliage 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I really wish that if something prevents firing the selected target this would be somehow shown to user when he is selecting the target with mouse. Maybe the target line could be shown with a different colour or something? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 I really wish that if something prevents firing the selected target this would be somehow shown to user when he is selecting the target with mouse. Maybe the target line could be shown with a different colour or something? second that a motion.... BTW looked and it could be foliage but it does look like a clear shot to me but when I turn tress on full there is a lot of foliage. I agree if you can't shot why the darn have a fire line that says you can!!!! Oh well I will die when I get the video back and the glorious rear shot will have to wait for another time.... Still trying to get a screen shot but Windows 7 Pro not playing ball.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Chance of a KwK 30/L55 of penetrating a Sherman's rear armor is not good, even at point blank -- it depends a bit on exact model, but in general the Sherman's flank and rear armor is relatively good. For example, M4A1 Sherman rear armor was 38mm, average, mostly at 0 degrees but some at a slight angle. Penetration of the KwK 30/L55 AP shot at point blank and zero degrees is usually cited at between 35 - 40mm. There was an APCR Tungsten round manufactured for the 20mm/L55 with significantly better penetration, but I don't think much, if any, of this round was still available to AC crews by Summer 1944. So maybe it has chance of penetration with an absolutely flat, point blank hit, but any deflection angle at all and the penetration chance drops quickly. Of course, there's always a change at causing at least some damage with partial penetration, hitting important components, etc. Regardless of penetration chance, I'm still surprised they didn't open fire nevertheless. Perhaps they should have retreated as they opened fire, but just sitting there doesn't make much sense... and in any event, I've had different experience -- When I played Closing the Pocket from the German side, one of my 234/1s opened up on the flank of a Sherman running in front of it at about 300m as soon as the AC spotted it. Other than some kind of bug being involved, only thing I can think of is that the AC crew has decided that since they have little chance of damaging the Sherman, it's better to keep quiet and hope they aren't noticed... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I have seen weapons refuse to target a vehicle if it has no chance of hurting it. I'm always trying (and failing) to get my MG42 team to target that M8 HMC that's advancing my way. I haven't tested this, I'd bet the 20mm will merrly open up on a Stuart's rear or a Priest because chances of doing damage are considerably higher. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I would be willing to wager the Puma would not have this issue. Spend the points, get the kill. I agree that the 20mm should have at least let go a few bursts, then backed away quickly with a nice 'nervous' rating. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankgeezer Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I know the 250/9 seems to be very aggressive when conducting overwatch on a Panther platoon. I flanked these Panthers down in a valley with a 76/Shermie on a manual 'Shoot & Scoot' type move. Three of those 250/9's unleashed a firestorm on me, pretty much blasting all the 'frosting' off my Shermie. I took heavy damage to the coax, tracks & optics, they also shot away my radio antenna leaving me pretty much deaf, dumb & blind. My Shermie got away only one round, before he slowly pulled back (couldn't pop smoke either). His target acquisition & ROF were significantly reduced for the rest of the game. I wonder if the Tac AI assigned those little buggers to be Elite/Fanatics? Would that have a bearing on your A/C's carefully plotted ambush? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I have seen weapons refuse to target a vehicle if it has no chance of hurting it. I'm always trying (and failing) to get my MG42 team to target that M8 HMC that's advancing my way. I haven't tested this, I'd bet the 20mm will merrly open up on a Stuart's rear or a Priest because chances of doing damage are considerably higher. I can vouch for that, I've had a PSW shoot up my Stuart face on much less trying for flank or rear. It was able to immobilize my tank which was then struck by a shreck.. Talk about a bad day at black rock... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I've had 20mm AC's open up on Shermans (front, hatches closed) at 600m+ range on their own. Since then I treat the light AC's similar to infantry, short cover arc and only let them shoot at things they can actually kill. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Funny this has been mentioned. I came up with a similiar situation recently. I was doing a US attack on a small town near Montebourg and my shermans came across some Stugs. They opened fire of course, knocking out one. They took return fire which missed and I pulled them back. Shortly thereafter I crept one of my tanks up to a row of bocage and had them nose up to it. Direct LOS to the StuG. I targeted..and waited. nothing. The tank sat there for a looong time until it got spotted and shot.. by the StuG. All this time it had a target order on the StuG. it wasnt blasting away at other targets, or whatever. Ive randomly seen this happen before as well. It seems to often happen with the main gun on tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ive randomly seen this happen before as well. It seems to often happen with the main gun on tanks. I'd guess it was an issue with LOS through bocage. Was it at something of an angle? I've had the LOS tell me I had LOS, a Target command was allowed... but, apparently, there was no LOF. Shifting the tank to decrease the angle through the bocage allowed the tank to shoot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Funny this has been mentioned. I came up with a similiar situation recently. I was doing a US attack on a small town near Montebourg and my shermans came across some Stugs. They opened fire of course, knocking out one. They took return fire which missed and I pulled them back. Shortly thereafter I crept one of my tanks up to a row of bocage and had them nose up to it. Direct LOS to the StuG. I targeted..and waited. nothing. The tank sat there for a looong time until it got spotted and shot.. by the StuG. All this time it had a target order on the StuG. it wasnt blasting away at other targets, or whatever. Ive randomly seen this happen before as well. It seems to often happen with the main gun on tanks. Ya, as I understand it this issue comes up when at least one of the tank crew has LOS to the target (the games actually tracks LOS for each tank crew member), but the LOS through the main gun sight is completely blocked by a tree trunk or other object. In this case, the Target order will show a blue or grey line, indicating the enemy can be targeted, but the gunner won't fire the main gun because he can't see it through the gun sight. IME, it's a pretty uncommon thing, but it still happens often enough to be annoying. It's clearly something that could use some sort of tweak or adjustment. Ideally, the tank should know to jockey its position slightly to help the gunner gain a firing solution -- I think it's absolutely realistic for inconvenient tree trunk to block the line of fire and/or sight picture, but this should just cause delay, not complete failure to fire. If this kind of behavior is beyond the unit AI's capability, then perhaps some sort of abstraction or fudge regarding main gun targeting and nearby objects is in order. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ya, as I understand it this issue comes up when at least one of the tank crew has LOS to the target (the games actually tracks LOS for each tank crew member), but the LOS through the main gun sight is completely blocked by a tree trunk or other object. In this case, the Target order will show a blue or grey line, indicating the enemy can be targeted, but the gunner won't fire the main gun because he can't see it through the gun sight. IME, it's a pretty uncommon thing, but it still happens often enough to be annoying. It's clearly something that could use some sort of tweak or adjustment. Ideally, the tank should know to jockey its position slightly to help the gunner gain a firing solution -- I think it's absolutely realistic for inconvenient tree trunk to block the line of fire and/or sight picture, but this should just cause delay, not complete failure to fire. If this kind of behavior is beyond the unit AI's capability, then perhaps some sort of abstraction or fudge regarding main gun targeting and nearby objects is in order. Yeah I read the post above. Its not that though. Im familiar with the grey line, I see it most often when some members of a squad can see a target but not all. However in this case, it was definitely a clear blue line, so the game was telling me AFAIK that the tank had clear LOS to the target. Often it can be confusing with Shermans because the commanders .50 cal mount gives GREAT LOS for the commander but the rest of the crew cant see what he does. However the tank was unbuttoned as well.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yeah I read the post above. Its not that though. Im familiar with the grey line, I see it most often when some members of a squad can see a target but not all. However in this case, it was definitely a clear blue line, so the game was telling me AFAIK that the tank had clear LOS to the target. Often it can be confusing with Shermans because the commanders .50 cal mount gives GREAT LOS for the commander but the rest of the crew cant see what he does. However the tank was unbuttoned as well.. Alas, the clear blue line does not always mean that the gunner (be it of a tank, ATG or mortar) can actually fire. There have been numerous threads on this since May and it is a known problem. The only solution to it that I know of is to move the weapon a short distance laterally. Maybe one day BF will fix it so that when the gunner has no LOF we will get a grey line rather than blue, but I am not holding my breath. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 That colour fix would be useful especially in cases where you can't move the weapon, because the tank/whatever is immobilized. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Yep; you can definitely have a blue target line, but still have the gunners LOS through the main gunsight blocked. I am not sure what the exact criterion are for showing a blue vs. a grey targeting line wrt vehicles... perhaps it has to do with the % of the crew that can see the target? Maybe if 4/5 crew can see the target, the line is still blue? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 ok. good to know. at least now that I know it is a problem I wont let the tank sit there too long. Now my next weird issue is that sometimes, especially with ''gunners'' be them tank gunners or HMG/LMG often will fire and then 'wait' or pause while targets are clearly in the open. Oftentimes they begin firing again, sometimes though they let the rest of that squad get to the other side of the road and out of LOS... I can live with this, but I wonder if its a bug or just part of playing a game with heavy AI interaction. To be fair to the game designers the AI is brilliant for an AI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Thxs for the responses I think the gunner must have had blocked LOS as lots of foliage. I would post screen shot but still not downloaded software for this Windows 7 Pro that can't take a print screen shot!!! MY AC was not spotted by the Sherman and slowly pulled back into the woods to fight another day. I just hope Jim has not read this.... Behind you.... It's behind you... Mind you he is about to throw towel in as I am Germans in the Huzzar scenario. We have not read the thread about balance but we will do soon as he is complaining that the Americans have the short end of the stick... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastiff Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 you need to us fraps great tool for that, win7 does not work well with video drivers. To make screen shots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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