ParaBellum Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 First let me say that I'm thoroughly enjoying CM:N, both against the AI and PBEMs. But every now and then I seem to run into problems with the vehicle AI that cause serious frustration. In a current PBEM I had ordered a veteran Tiger to quick move to a new position to engage an enemy tank: No face command was given. The Tiger moved out but as he reached its intended position suddenly a 'face to' line appeared and he started to rotate. He continued to rotate in place until he presented his flank towards the enemy tank. In the command phase I give the Tiger a reverse command in order to get his front pointing at the enemy again and to get him clear of that tree. He starts a backwards turn but doesn't simply drive back a couple of meters... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 ...no, he continues his circling around... ...until he has his back turned towards the enemy: Anyone got an idea to what happened here? Are drunk tank commanders modeled? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Great pictures I'd check the map side/direction friendly to setting in the editor. I think vehicles that cannot actually see an enemy threat will present their front in the opposite direction to friendly. So, I summise that the enemy are actually coming from a 'friendly' direction according to the editor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I think that may be it. Poor tiger thinks he's surrounded so he's attacking in all directions! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 Just checked the map in the editor, that's not the problem. Friendly edge is NE, enemy SW. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 It does look like its hung up in that one tree, doesn't it? Ironwood? It has a grip on the Tiger it looks like. If your gridded terrain mod reflects the action spots underneath, it almost looks like the house is partly built upon a tree action spot. I wonder if the tank is hung up because it "thinks" it should be an open space. Are the trees planted individually on the landscape? Or are they part of the underlying terrain? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 So, our viewpoint is approximately south-westerly? Looking more closely, I can see the Tiger is selected and the enemy armour icon is not a '?' so he must be able to see it. Did he fire at all? The reversing thing is just down to action spots but the rotation/facing IS odd! I'm flummoxed. :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 I think the tree might indeed be the problem. Still doesn't fully explain that screw-up IMO. EDIT: Our viewpoint is NW. The Tiger saw the enemy tank when he arrived at its intented position, then lost LOS when he started reversing/rotating. He didn't open fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazing 88's Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Would assigning a 'V' cover arc stop the rotation from happening? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 His turret was pointing in the right direction, but his hull wasn't. Could it be that the tree is occluding that action spot, so the tank is reversing around that spot to get to the one beyond which perhaps you just touched when you clicked? Since the tree is in the way it is effectively orbiting it! Anyway, has he eventually behaved or has he paid the ultimate penalty? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 ParaBellum, do you have a saved game of this behavior? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldaros Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I think the tree might indeed be the problem. Still doesn't fully explain that screw-up IMO. In my experience, the vehicle AI has a consistent problem with continuing to rotate after it should have stopped. It only seems to happen while the vehicle is rotating in place near obstacles. I've seen a number of cases where the AI halts to make a sharp turn, starts rotating, and then instead of moving forward once it's lined up properly, just keeps turning. Also, how long was the reverse command? The AI usually seems to cancel vehicle move orders that are only a few meters long, and replace them with a rotate order. I've had a lot of problems with tanks that stop a few meters away from bocage, then won't move forward when I try to get them right up against it. They usually replace the move with a rotate, and start turning away. I play realtime, not WEGO, so I've never had the patience to see how far it will rotate before it gives up. I've found that reversing 20 meters or so, then moving back up again works much better, since the AI won't change the orders. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldaros Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Would assigning a 'V' cover arc stop the rotation from happening? In my experience tanks only rotate their turret for a cover arc; they usually don't seem to rotate the chassis unless they're actively engaged. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Yeah, looks like a straight up bug to me. But without a Save it's going to be very difficult to track this one down. Alternatively, what scenario or QB map was in use here? Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 I've uploaded the two turns from the PBEM: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31419968/buggy%20Tiger.7z Password is puschel. I hope my opponent doesn't read this. The game was a QB, map is QB-022. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I have experienced something similar: I gave a Panther a rather longish reverse order but he turned and drove forwards. I think I can dig up the savegame if needed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJ62 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I gave several IG guns a move order with a face command (forgot to give a deploy cmd) and when they reached their destination they just started spinning counter-clock wise for several minutes. What got them to stop was giving them a deploy command. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzrshrek Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Ive noticed tanks don't have a realistic turn ratio. Irl drivers reversed 1 track and forwarded the other so they could swing around on the spot, but in this game they like slowly turns like trucks with forward wheel drive.. id say this is not modelled in the game? Or maybe i have played it to little to see this effect.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 Ive noticed tanks don't have a realistic turn ratio. Irl drivers reversed 1 track and forwarded the other so they could swing around on the spot, but in this game they like slowly turns like trucks with forward wheel drive.. id say this is not modelled in the game? Or maybe i have played it to little to see this effect.. Not every tank in WW2 actually could turn on the spot using neutral steering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Ive noticed tanks don't have a realistic turn ratio. Irl drivers reversed 1 track and forwarded the other so they could swing around on the spot, but in this game they like slowly turns like trucks with forward wheel drive.. id say this is not modelled in the game? Or maybe i have played it to little to see this effect.. It's my understanding that the Sherman didn't have neutral turning (which allows turning in place), although several German tanks did. I'm not 100% certain of this though. Apparently it was (is?) difficult on the drive train. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Yeah, not all tanks had zero turn radius (aka "neutral steering"). It decreased mechanical reliability and greatly increased the chance of throwing a track. In most situations neutral steering wouldn't do much except cause problems. I knew a guy who was an Abrams driver for a National Guard unit back in the 90s. He said that when they went to train the neutral steering controls (separate from regular steering) were wired down so they couldn't use it. Apparently they learned the hard way that a 2 hour training exercise could translate into a 6 hour mechanical repair experience Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 IIRC, WW2 tanks that had neutral steer ability: Churchhill, Tiger, Panther and other AVF based on those chassis. Tiger II maybe also. I have no idea how often that ability was used, but it was probably rarely necessary. Here is a video of a Panther tank pivoting on a dime by locking one tread. As you can see it can turn very quickly (the video also shows the turret traverse speed with the engine at idle). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Are you talking about what the Tiger does in Kelly's Heroes? 3:25 minute mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-gl2s2dJtw&feature=related 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 If you look closely at the T34/"Tiger" in the film, it is not neutral steering but simply locking the pivot side and turning on it while operating the opposite tracks conventionally. True neutral steering runs both tracks in opposite directions. Here's true neutral steering: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Thanks for clearing that up....it still outsteers my tanks in CMBN..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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