Questions as I Adjust From CMx1 Play to CMx2:

[PlatCmdr_too]

Having been a longtime fan and player of the original CMx1 series I am really enjoying this CMx2 version of WWII battlefield play. However, having not played CMSF and being unfamiliar with the CMx2 engine has led to some vexing moments, and I hope a few of you out there can clear things up.

1) There appears to be a lack of clarity where troops are positioned on the map as many times squads appear to overlap the terrain grid they have been assigned to and seem to be in adjacent areas that in some cases lack cover thus making them appear exposed even though the other half of the platoon appears to remain in cover. Are these troops in the "open" truly so, or if I move the group into a yellow grid box within the woods, are they all technically in the "woods" even if some appear to overlap into open areas adjacent to cover? I suppose a simple marker/indicator such as "in woods" when clicking on a unit marker would suffice.

2) I also am struggling with some difficulty in determining whether or not a unit given a "deploy" order is actually going to carry out this order. Such is the case with deploying HMGs or mortars. A simple text "status" note much like which exists with the "pause" feature would be helpful on map when setting multiple waypoints/multiple command orders in knowing that this command will be executed within that multi-order sequence. In addition, I'm surprised there isn't a countdown timer like that existing in CMx1 for the setup time which would be helpful in determining the realtime status of that weapon during its setup phase. Am I missing something here?

3) My last question is regarding on board mortars. When assigning these to fire directly using their own LOS to target versus using a HQ spotter, it appears that the MG equipped troops assigned within the mortar team open up with their small arms while the mortar is firing, which I figure is then going to give away the position of the mortar team as a whole. Is there any way to fire the mortar in this manner by itself without the rest of the mortar team also firing upon the target with small arms?

[Michael Emrys]

1) There appears to be a lack of clarity where troops are positioned on the map as many times squads appear to overlap the terrain grid they have been assigned to and seem to be in adjacent areas that in some cases lack cover thus making them appear exposed even though the other half of the platoon appears to remain in cover. Are these troops in the "open" truly so, or if I move the group into a yellow grid box within the woods, are they all technically in the "woods" even if some appear to overlap into open areas adjacent to cover? I suppose a simple marker/indicator such as "in woods" when clicking on a unit marker would suffice.

Squads—at least in the US Army—occupy three action spots. If you want to control exactly where your troops end up, you'll need to split the squads into teams.

2) I also am struggling with some difficulty in determining whether or not a unit given a "deploy" order is actually going to carry out this order. Such is the case with deploying HMGs or mortars. A simple text "status" note much like which exists with the "pause" feature would be helpful on map when setting multiple waypoints/multiple command orders in knowing that this command will be executed within that multi-order sequence. In addition, I'm surprised there isn't a countdown timer like that existing in CMx1 for the setup time which would be helpful in determining the realtime status of that weapon during its setup phase. Am I missing something here?

I think I had a problem with this a couple of times too. I would give a mortar team an order to deploy, and when I checked it at the end of the minute it would sometimes not have done so, even though it is only supposed to take 21 seconds and it had no other orders to fulfill. Your suggestion sounds like a good one. I too would like some kind of acknowledgement that the order has been received and will be acted upon.

3) My last question is regarding on board mortars. When assigning these to fire directly using their own LOS to target versus using a HQ spotter, it appears that the MG equipped troops assigned within the mortar team open up with their small arms while the mortar is firing, which I figure is then going to give away the position of the mortar team as a whole. Is there any way to fire the mortar in this manner by itself without the rest of the mortar team also firing upon the target with small arms?

I have no experience with this yet, but other players have posted similar complaints. Not sure what BFC proposes to do about it.

Michael

[GreenAsJade]

Squads—at least in the US Army—occupy three action spots. If you want to control exactly where your troops end up, you'll need to split the squads into teams.

... and, I am fairly sure that Steve clarified that if an individual dude looks like he is exposed then he _is_ exposed.

GaJ

[c3k]

Use the FACE command to change which action spots, and internally within each action spot the precise placement, the squad or team will use.

[womble]

... and, I am fairly sure that Steve clarified that if an individual dude looks like he is exposed then he _is_ exposed.

GaJ

Indeed, though he might not be as exposed as he looks, because of the 'abstracted' micro-terrain. It may be that the trooper has elected to remain in a cozy little hollow rather than cross the remaining open ground to the dubious safety of some bracken.

[Blackcat]

"My last question is regarding on board mortars. When assigning these to fire directly using their own LOS to target versus using a HQ spotter, it appears that the MG equipped troops assigned within the mortar team open up with their small arms while the mortar is firing, which I figure is then going to give away the position of the mortar team as a whole. Is there any way to fire the mortar in this manner by itself without the rest of the mortar team also firing upon the target with small arms? "

I am struggling with this one. Could you expand on this, perhaps give an example?

[crsutt]

"My last question is regarding on board mortars. When assigning these to fire directly using their own LOS to target versus using a HQ spotter, it appears that the MG equipped troops assigned within the mortar team open up with their small arms while the mortar is firing, which I figure is then going to give away the position of the mortar team as a whole. Is there any way to fire the mortar in this manner by itself without the rest of the mortar team also firing upon the target with small arms? "

I am struggling with this one. Could you expand on this, perhaps give an example?

Well direct fire implies that there is a line of sight to the firer as well (more or less clear) depending on terrain. I don't think a mortar crew banging away with a mortar even in good concealment terrain would remain concealed for long regardless of whether the rest of the squad was plinking away with other small arms or not. You are not going to miss the location of a mortar firing away in your LOS. This is really a weapon designed for indirect fire with an observer not for direct fire save for the occasional emergency.

[Rocky Balboa]

Actually the 60MM mortar was designed to be used in direct fire mode as well as indirect, so it functions as both in game.

The way I use them in direct fire mode is to hold them back until I have achieved fire superiority with my rifle squads then I bring the 60's up and let them finish the job while my squads maneuver. They are especially effective at taking out AT/Inf guns and MG positions.

[Pak40]

Too bad they don't have a "Target Heavy" command that would basically be the opposite of the "Target Light" command.

[Stitch]

So far in my experiences that I've used and been used against me, putting a mortar just behind some bocage with LOS to an enemy position is a very good thing. While you can hear the plopping, positive ID just never happens, until the others with small arms decide to open fire as well.

I've notice these devious AI start positionings in many QBs I've attempted.

[PlatCmdr_too]

... and, I am fairly sure that Steve clarified that if an individual dude looks like he is exposed then he _is_ exposed.

GaJ

GaJ, this may be Steve's explanation, but it still does not answer why this is occurring in the first place. I never had this issue with CMx1, as unlike in CMx1, my troop's movements are now limited to a yellow grid designate, which is fine, but inevitably, there often times remain troopers who appear to fall outside the cover afforded by say, the woods, thus giving the appearance that they are now in the open, as the adjacent terrain area they are now standing on appears to be just that.

I went with others suggestions and tried splitting my platoons into squads as well as using the face command but still am coming up with the same outcome. I suppose I will need to playtest this in a Hotseat battle and see if this potential exposure to the enemy is indeed occurring or simply a matter or perception based on the way the terrain is modeled.

As for the mortar issue, I'm still not convinced that the small arms fire these teams engage in during the mortar salvo isn't giving the position of the mortar team away. In CMx1, this was not the case.

[stikkypixie]

GaJ, this may be Steve's explanation, but it still does not answer why this is occurring in the first place. I never had this issue with CMx1, as unlike in CMx1, my troop's movements are now limited to a yellow grid designate, which is fine, but inevitably, there often times remain troopers who appear to fall outside the cover afforded by say, the woods, thus giving the appearance that they are now in the open, as the adjacent terrain area they are now standing on appears to be just that.

I went with others suggestions and tried splitting my platoons into squads as well as using the face command but still am coming up with the same outcome. I suppose I will need to playtest this in a Hotseat battle and see if this potential exposure to the enemy is indeed occurring or simply a matter or perception based on the way the terrain is modeled.

As for the mortar issue, I'm still not convinced that the small arms fire these teams engage in during the mortar salvo isn't giving the position of the mortar team away. In CMx1, this was not the case.

Troops will try to spread out. Are you sure there are enough trees to hide a whole squad?

[PlatCmdr_too]

Perhaps that is the issue. I would like to assume that if the movement marker "yellow boxes" is indicating I can move there, and these fall within the area contained by the "woods" during the movement phase, then I'd assume all units moving into that previously highlighted grid would naturally falls in place within that previously marked area. I suppose I'll need to then accept the yellow movement grid boxes as a relevant marker, not an absolute marker as to where these troops will end up once they conclude their movement. Or am I assuming too much.

As for the on-board mortar question, here's another issue. If for instance my mortar team has LOS to the enemy and fires upon them, is their position compromised more by direct fire in this manner than if they were to commence firing from this same position with the assist of a HQ directed fire mission using this same team whereby, even though still positioned with LOS to the enemy, the small arms then wouldn't come into play? I suppose I could playtest this too later when I get home, but was hoping for a quick response to save me the time.

[Michael Emrys]

If you split a squad but then send all the teams to the same action spot, the squad will then simply reform and you're back where you started from. The idea behind splitting squads is to send each team to its own action spot where it will be out of sight from the enemy. If the cover available is insufficient to conceal all the teams, you must hold one or more teams back somewhere or accept the consequences that they will likely be spotted and shot at. This is entirely realistic.

Michael

[ASL Veteran]

Just an fyi, you can target mortars direct at an enemy unit or area fire direct on a piece of terrain when you don't have direct 'visual' LOS at the target. In other words, if you are on the other side of a RR embankment and you can only see up to the tracks, you can area fire with mortars beyond the tracks for a certain distance even though you can't actually 'see' past the tracks. If you do this there will be no return fire because the enemy can't see you.

[Blackcat]

If I have got this correct the OP's mortar teams are firing their own small arms at the enemy as well as dropping mortar rounds. Can't say I have ever seen that myself and can only think he has got his mortars in very close, in which case they ain't going to last long anyway.

I am really not sure that putting mortars in the front line is good practice.

[akd]

Perhaps that is the issue. I would like to assume that if the movement marker "yellow boxes" is indicating I can move there, and these fall within the area contained by the "woods" during the movement phase, then I'd assume all units moving into that previously highlighted grid would naturally falls in place within that previously marked area. I suppose I'll need to then accept the yellow movement grid boxes as a relevant marker, not an absolute marker as to where these troops will end up once they conclude their movement. Or am I assuming too much.

If you are giving orders to an infantry unit that does not have sub-teams (e.g. an HMG team), the yellow box indicates the underlying action spot the selected unit will move to and occupy. Their facing within this spot is determined by the direction they arrive from, unless overridden by a "face" or "cover arc" order.

With squads that are comprised of multiple teams, you should see up to three "boxes" (yellow, red and orange) when giving a movement order to the squad. These indicate the action spots that the respective teams in the squad will occupy and are oriented based on the direction of movement and the terrain at the destination with a tendency to align to linear features approached from the perpendicular. (There is a lighting bug currently that can make the red and orange boxes near impossible to see at certain times of the day).

There are two exceptions to the above for squads with multiple teams:

1. The "assault" order will show only the single yellow box on the action spot, but squads will still spread their teams over 2-3 action spots at the destination.

2. If you have multiple units selected (e.g. a platoon HQ and two squads), you may see only the single yellow box when issuing movement orders.

[ClarkWGriswold]

Perhaps that is the issue. I would like to assume that if the movement marker "yellow boxes" is indicating I can move there, and these fall within the area contained by the "woods" during the movement phase, then I'd assume all units moving into that previously highlighted grid would naturally falls in place within that previously marked area. I suppose I'll need to then accept the yellow movement grid boxes as a relevant marker, not an absolute marker as to where these troops will end up once they conclude their movement.

I've found that most of the time squads will end up in the action spot that you order them to. However, sometimes squads come under fire during their movement, and one or two guys will go to ground. In these instances, the majority of the squad will end up where they're supposed to be but a couple of stragglers may wind up in an adjacent action spot or even further away.

[Michael Emrys]

With squads that are comprised of multiple teams, you should see up to three "boxes" (yellow, red and orange) when giving a movement order to the squad. These indicate the action spots that the respective teams in the squad will occupy...

Quoted because I think this is the crux of the matter.

Michael

[GreenAsJade]

GaJ, this may be Steve's explanation, but it still does not answer why this is occurring in the first place. I never had this issue with CMx1, as unlike in CMx1, my troop's movements are now limited to a yellow grid designate, which is fine, but inevitably, there often times remain troopers who appear to fall outside the cover afforded by say, the woods, thus giving the appearance that they are now in the open, as the adjacent terrain area they are now standing on appears to be just that.

.

I agree that you can get a line to move a troop somewhere and in CM1 when they got there they would all occupy the cover that was at that place, wheras in CMBN you can find that some of them are left out in the open.

Indeed, there are other problems like this. If you plot a movement through some woods alongside a diagonal road, half the squad tends to step out of the woods and walk along the road instead... my thinking on this is that it's AI tweaks that will come in due course...

GaJ

[akd]

I agree that you can get a line to move a troop somewhere and in CM1 when they got there they would all occupy the cover that was at that place, wheras in CMBN you can find that some of them are left out in the open.

Of course they would since, in CMx1 12 men occupied an infinite point in space. You could solve this "problem" in CMBN by either having 12 men stack inside of each other or by having the player control every single soldier on the battlefield individually. Some probably very much want the latter, but it is not the type of game CMBN is trying to be, so you have to make do with units occupying 8mx8m spots at the team (2 to 7 men) level, and in the vast majority of cases making good use of the 3D cover that might be available in that discreet space based on the selected facing.

[PlatCmdr_too]

If I have got this correct the OP's mortar teams are firing their own small arms at the enemy as well as dropping mortar rounds. Can't say I have ever seen that myself and can only think he has got his mortars in very close, in which case they ain't going to last long anyway.

I am really not sure that putting mortars in the front line is good practice.

If you would like to see a demonstration of this, I experienced this during the "Mission 3: Battle Drill" scenario from the Devon - Basic Training battles. While firing at Hill 2014 from the instructed, "Base of Fire" firing spot, my mortar team also opened up with small arms fire at the areas of Hill 2014 that were within the mortar team's LOS. Perhaps too close by your estimate, but this fire mission was located in the area I was told to fire from as instructed by the game manual itself. I'll likely need to use HQ spotters to avoid this occurrence in the future.

[PlatCmdr_too]

With squads that are comprised of multiple teams, you should see up to three "boxes" (yellow, red and orange) when giving a movement order to the squad. These indicate the action spots that the respective teams in the squad will occupy and are oriented based on the direction of movement and the terrain at the destination with a tendency to align to linear features approached from the perpendicular. (There is a lighting bug currently that can make the red and orange boxes near impossible to see at certain times of the day).

There are two exceptions to the above for squads with multiple teams:

1. The "assault" order will show only the single yellow box on the action spot, but squads will still spread their teams over 2-3 action spots at the destination.

2. If you have multiple units selected (e.g. a platoon HQ and two squads), you may see only the single yellow box when issuing movement orders.

Quoted because I think this is the crux of the matter.

Michael

Ah yes, this does help to define things better, with attention now drawn to this, I now can see a slight color difference between the movement boxes in the case of squads containing multiple teams. This remains hard to discern and was not immediately apparent.

Thanks guys for helping to clear this up a bit.

[ClarkWGriswold]

I now can see a slight color difference between the movement boxes in the case of squads containing multiple teams. This remains hard to discern and was not immediately apparent.

It would be great if someone could create an extra bright version of the movement squares, as was done with unit bases. Or, better yet, BFC could alter it in the stock game. That change alone might mitigate a lot of these types of questions. Probably not as big of a problem in CMSF, given the terrain. But with all of the grass, trees, hedges, etc. in CMBN, I often find the boxes to be difficult to see (just like the stock unit bases).

[YankeeDog]

It would be great if someone could create an extra bright version of the movement squares, as was done with unit bases. Or, better yet, BFC could alter it in the stock game. That change alone might mitigate a lot of these types of questions. Probably not as big of a problem in CMSF, given the terrain. But with all of the grass, trees, hedges, etc. in CMBN, I often find the boxes to be difficult to see (just like the stock unit bases).

BFC has acknowledged this issue and said that it will be fixed in the first patch. Apparently, they made some last-minute changes to the lighting model that had the unintended side effect of making the movement action spots harder to see. Oops.