G B Scurlock Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 In the tutorial scenario I was assaulting across the bridge to the farm under suppressing fire of a tank. as the first squad of 4 approached the first building on the right one went down. Two more went down after that and the final guy went to ground. There were no enemy that I could see that could fire on them and the tank was area firing at that building that they ran to. It had to be from the tanks machine gun fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Yes friendly fire is a definite possibility. You could be getting ricochets off the buildings Watch out if you are firing over the heads of troops or even being too close to heavy weapons too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Area fire with small arms, no. HE effects yes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Y'know, they may have snuck it into the game. I had been under the impression that the game engine made friendly casualties impossible, but awhile ago they made a passing reference to now including friendly casualties. I've got no more details than that. I just tried, and its physically impossible for you to Target your own men. The game won't accept the command. (Edit) - You see even the Beta testers are of two minds on this. Something is going on - it happened to me in a fight last night - you can't mow down a whole squad accidentally but something is going on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Y'know, they may have snuck it into the game. I had been under the impression that the game engine made friendly casualties impossible, but awhile ago they made a passing reference to now including friendly casualties. I've got no more details than that. I just tried, and its physically impossible for you to Target your own men. The game won't accept the command. (Edit) - You see even the Beta testers are of two minds on this. Something is going on - it happened to me in a fight last night - you can't mow down a whole squad accidentally but something is going on. I always understood from CMSF that small arms, or MG's would not cause friendly casualties, but heavy ordnance and grenades would. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brille Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 ...eh...well and don´t even think of supporting your men with close smokelayers from your tankguns...could hurt a little... Butchered a good group until i noticed that my casulties came from those near impacting smokeshells instead of enemy fire. Do these shells really fragment that strong on impact or what is the reason ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I always understood from CMSF that small arms, or MG's would not cause friendly casualties, but heavy ordnance and grenades would. Nope, DEFINITELY gunned down some of my own men the other night because I didn't cease fire soon enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwnado Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Friendly fire possibilities never crossed my mind until I stupidly ordered a group of 3-4 to advance in a forward, but diagonal direction...which lead them to cross through the fire of a forward firing BAR team set on area fire. I issued the order while paused and must not have been thinking it was firing because I didn't see tracer fire on screen. Obviously, it was mid-burst... I panned over to the other side of the screen for a split section and then panned back just in time to see the rear most man in the diagonally advancing group fall to the ground at the same time the BAR team was firing VERY near them. I immediately thought he took friendly fire and cursed myself for not paying better attention. Now that I'm reading there is a possibility that friendly fire ISN'T in the game, I'm now curious about this myself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I just ran a quick test, walking your men through another squad's area fire does nothing. So there's no 'friendly fire' there. So whatever changes they made to friendly casualties is considerably more subtle than that. Maybe ricochets are treated as shrapnel, I don't know. Something got changed - a bit - since CMSF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I'm sure I caused some friendly fire (which isn't, really) HE casualties when I neglected to cancel a tank's area targeting on an area being assaulted by infantry. Don't know about small arms/MG fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I'm sure I caused some friendly fire (which isn't, really) HE casualties when I neglected to cancel a tank's area targeting on an area being assaulted by infantry. Don't know about small arms/MG fire. Yes, that has always been in. Use Target Light if you expect to enter the target location of your tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 ...eh...well and don´t even think of supporting your men with close smokelayers from your tankguns...could hurt a little... Butchered a good group until i noticed that my casulties came from those near impacting smokeshells instead of enemy fire. Do these shells really fragment that strong on impact or what is the reason ? It's Willy Peter. You do get FF with arty for certain...I think it was with the NATO mod(??), but not area fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pwnado Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I just ran a quick test, walking your men through another squad's area fire does nothing. So there's no 'friendly fire' there. So whatever changes they made to friendly casualties is considerably more subtle than that. Maybe ricochets are treated as shrapnel, I don't know. Something got changed - a bit - since CMSF. Well, I'm going to pretend that friendly fire exists anyway... That way if it ever gets snuck in, it won't surprise me because I won't have a habit of running my troops through friendly fields of fire simply because the game allows them to be impervious to bullets fired from their buddies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wuehlmaus Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I just lost an M10 that had rushed to Axis side of the map to steamroll them from the back. At first I thought that AT infantry scored the kill. But later the kill stats of an M10 listed that lost M10 :-( 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I just tried it out in the Demo tutorial. I let everyone fire at the main building at the beginning and then sent one squad inside. I set everyone to Target light so no HE was used, only small arms. The squad took no casualties, although there was a whole platoon firing at them from not more than 50m (The squad got pinned though). Once I let one of Shermans with its .50cal join it (also Target light) the squad took 4 casualties in just a few casualties. So it seems only HMGs can cause casualties to your own men. I got suspicious though in "Closing the Pocket" when I took some unexpected casualties when assaulting buildings with suppressed enemies inside them and the suppressing fire continuing during the assault. There was no HE involved, only the MG 42 (HMGs) in the wood, although they have the same calibre as the squad MG 42s and rifles. I just tried again, the casualties definately came from the .50cal exclusively 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cull Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I had a Rhino light up my own guys in "Breaking the Bocage". Squad was assaulting toward a hedgerow and my tank decided to help them out by firing into said hedgerow, resulting in two friendly KIA and one WIA. It's possible those casualties came from enemy fire from the hedgerow, but as I watched the replay I was convinced it was the not-so-friendly HE. Dumb move by the Rhino gunner, but realistic results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 The bulk of my casualties in "Breaking the Bocage" (half way through the scenario) have been friendly fire from my tanks using Target Light. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 ...eh...well and don´t even think of supporting your men with close smokelayers from your tankguns...could hurt a little... Butchered a good group until i noticed that my casulties came from those near impacting smokeshells instead of enemy fire. Do these shells really fragment that strong on impact or what is the reason ? They're White Phosphorus. Bad, burny Juju. You do not want to be nearby when they go off. I had a Rhino light up my own guys in "Breaking the Bocage". Squad was assaulting toward a hedgerow and my tank decided to help them out by firing into said hedgerow, resulting in two friendly KIA and one WIA. It's possible those casualties came from enemy fire from the hedgerow, but as I watched the replay I was convinced it was the not-so-friendly HE. Dumb move by the Rhino gunner, but realistic results. Eminently possible, even likely, since HE will definitely cause FF casualties (lost a couple to a 75mm HE bursting >15m away from them...). IIRC, thrown grenades won't, due to the difficulty of modelling their correct use in building fighting, but rifle grenades will cause blue-on-blue. Always a good idea to check your HE throwers either lift their barrage or switch to "Target Light" when your assault teams go in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphonne Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 small arms ricochets will cause friendly casualties 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I'm pretty sure, from recent experience, that friendly .50cal (at least) can cause casualties, and friendly small arms fire can pin. Just re-ran a turn after carefully removing all area fire that might be near friendlies (one tank and a 3-4 BARs) and all 7 elements that had gotten pinned on the first runthrough survived unscathed in the re-run turn and no casualties were sustained, rather than taking 2 or 3. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I´d some friendly fire in the Pocket scenario (Iron mode). A german squads machine gunner hit a nearby tree, while aiming at some GI´s in the distance. Unfortunately that tree served as cover for another german from a different german squad, forward of that machine gunner. I couldn´t finally resolve if that unlucky german got killed by a ricochet or a direct hit. I´d highly appreciate if spotted friendly units deny LOF, as this would allow way more realistic tactics, as leaving gaps in the infantry line, in order for rearward heavy machine gunners just beeing able to shoot through these gaps. Overshooting would be another nice realism improvement if circumstances allow (from higher ground and/or sufficient distance to allow ballistic shooting). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I´d highly appreciate if spotted friendly units deny LOF, as this would allow way more realistic tactics, as leaving gaps in the infantry line, in order for rearward heavy machine gunners just beeing able to shoot through these gaps. Overshooting would be another nice realism improvement if circumstances allow (from higher ground and/or sufficient distance to allow ballistic shooting). Not surprisingly there was a lot of discussion on this point back on the CMSF threads. Your own post gives the clue, start with a simple rule (friendly unit blocks LOF) then put in an exception (target or firer at a higher elevation than the intervening unit). Just imagine the complexity of coding that one when the unit in the middle is moving - trigonometry in 3D multiple times per second, for every bullet that is fired. Supposing you have a 12 man squad and a MG giving supressing fire onto a building whilst the assault team goes in, how many rounds are going down range and how many calculations will have to be done? That is just for the first exception to the rule. I am sure if you think about it you could come up with another dozen exceptions, each equally reasonable and valid and each adding to the number of calculations per round per second that would have to be carried out. Then there is the issue of path finding. You set up your assault very carefully with firelanes and movement lanes. Somehow the assault troops pathfing routines have got to become aware of that, otherwise that out the 12 man assault team one man might stray into the LOF which would then block the the suppressive fire and as a result the assault might fail. Given the sheer complexity of the whole thing one can easily see why BF came up with the solution anything below 50 cal doesn't cause friendly casualties. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneymaxx Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Given the sheer complexity of the whole thing one can easily see why BF came up with the solution anything below 50 cal doesn't cause friendly casualties. There is a small problem with that though, especially in WEGO mode. You can area fire (target light) a house with a Panther and move in your infantry at the same time but you cannot do the same with a Sherman since it's 50 cal will kill your troops (as I had to experience). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 There is a small problem with that though, especially in WEGO mode. You can area fire (target light) a house with a Panther and move in your infantry at the same time but you cannot do the same with a Sherman since it's 50 cal will kill your troops (as I had to experience). Doesn't the commander have to be unbuttoned to fire the 50 cal? If so I think a solution presents itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I'm sure one of my tanks caused few friendly casualties with the main gun and the mg. It was firing over their heads at the time 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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