Need "Target Armor" Command for AT guns

[Echo]

AT guns waste their AP ammunition on infantry units. We need the old command from CMBO "Target Armor", which was a covered arc command. AT units would only engage armor units that entered their covered arcs, and ignored other units.

[simmox]

yea,got my pak 40 smashed in this way in *busting the bocage*

opened up on infantry at 600m which crossed into its *target arc*

also

shreck teams may require a look at

in the same scenario,the shreck team gave away its position,whilst i was moving it into position for a shot on a sherman,by,the 2nd member of said team,opens fire on the sherman with his rifle,alerting the tank crew and getting themselves killed,BEFORE the shreck fires a shot,the fool

another thing i had happen in the same scenario

my remaining pak40,killed a sherman at 300m,one shot all good

his 2nd attempt on another two shermans a bit later,at 100m,the tanks appeared to take multiple hits in the side turret with no apparent effects.

the tanks were in the tree line very close to my trenches,and i just couldnt knock them out

ok i said,must be hitting the tree trunks everytime it fires,and wasted alot of ammo on these targets until they moved out of LOS

so

i move two seperate shreck teams to deal with them,

and team one does the above,and the 2nd team nails the sherman in the side at 30m with no effect,expending all its ammo,with no noticable result

a few rifle platoons unload their antitank assets on the same targets,through the following turns at 20 -30m,and score what look like good hits, but these two shermans,right in close to my trenches,just cant be killed.

i had around 5 infantry assets within 50m or less of these tanks,the tanks basically charged my trench line and then sat there.while my troops expended all there ammo on them,and then became helpless against the shermans.

on the other side of town,i had a grenadier platoon moving up through the bocage and fire a faust at a sherman at around 200m while they were under a move command

granted i didnt have their HQ close by,so i can accept they were green or just trigger happy.

salute

[Pandur]

AT guns waste their AP ammunition on infantry units. We need the old command from CMBO "Target Armor", which was a covered arc command. AT units would only engage armor units that entered their covered arcs, and ignored other units.

was like that in CMSF, latest word on it, "its on the list"(since 2007).

shreck teams may require a look at

in the same scenario,the shreck team gave away its position,whilst i was moving it into position for a shot on a sherman,by,the 2nd member of said team,opens fire on the sherman with his rifle,alerting the tank crew and getting themselves killed,BEFORE the shreck fires a shot,the fool

was like that in CMSF with RPG teams and such. i dont know if this will ever be looked at, CMSF never got it fixed so far.

the tanks were in the tree line very close to my trenches,and i just couldnt knock them out

i did not expirience this in the demo so far, but in CMSF a "dismounted" tank, means functional but the crew bailed, could sometimes soak up large amount of fire. i dont know under what circumstances this happened, but could it be that the tanks you fired at where dismounted(never returned fire)?

[simmox]

no,they were certainly occupied,they were within 20m of a quality rifle platoon.who werent too happy with the amount of fire coming from the tanks at pretty much point blank range

i suspect its something to do with the trees we were all in.

id say at least 8 anti tank attempts were made with apparent visual hits,all inside 50m or less,i havent been able to reproduce this yet.

[Pandur]

then it was probably really bad bad luck, or at least it looks like it

just took out 4 shermans in the road to berlin scenario. schreck roughly shot from 40m to 70m, about 75% hits, every "hit" a killed sherman and on the last one the crew bailed after the hit, vehicle not destroyed but crewless. your case if pretty extreme compared to this.

[Wiggum]

Yes we need a Target Armor only cover arc and the bug with Infantry firing their handguns at tanks needs to be fixed.

Pu i believe there i no official aswer to that at the moment.

[Hoepner]

Yes, I agree... need something asi in CMAK and CMBB cover arcs, that were divided between "armor cover arc" and "shoot for all cover arc." Armor cover arc is surely the most needed command for AT guns

[AstroCat]

Seems like something you would definitely need especially giving the terrain in CMBN.

[derbius]

Yes +1 from me for that. To be honest the AI should automatically default to "armour only" behaviour for AT guns - you should only fire at infantry if you force it.

[Rex J.]

On a similar note, US MG teams quickly use all their rifle grenades if you issue an area fire command at reasonably short distances. Fortunately, rifle squads don't seem to do this but MG teams do.

[noxnoctum]

Yes armor arc is badly needed.

Until then I suggest guys using the stopgap of giving your AT gun a tiny cover arc in front of it so it won't shoot but will still maintain max spotting (you could hide too but then you can't see as much). Not ideal, since in some situations you want your AT gun to fire on armor as soon as it appears, and with this you have to expressly order it to do so, but it's better than the alternative of having it fire at infantry.

[noxnoctum]

On a similar note, US MG teams quickly use all their rifle grenades if you issue an area fire command at reasonably short distances. Fortunately, rifle squads don't seem to do this but MG teams do.

Have you tried using the "target light" command? They might not use them as often.

[Wiggum]

The problem with giving them a normal cover-arc is that i will not work in WEGO...

And WEGO is the way to play the game !

[Piecekeeper]

How do you move them anyway? and can you re-man them?

[A Canadian Cat]

AT guns waste their AP ammunition on infantry units. We need the old command from CMBO "Target Armor", which was a covered arc command. AT units would only engage armor units that entered their covered arcs, and ignored other units.

Come to think of it my infantry coming under fire was how I found the AT gun in the Road to Berlin scenario. Up to that point it had KO'ed a Sherman and bounced a couple of rounds off another but the tanks were clueless as to where it was or even what direction. I had to hold them back. As soon as one of my squads came under HE fire (well after the settled down any way) my guys spotted them. After that it took some work but eventually they took care of it.

If I had been the German commander I would *not* have wanted my guys to bother firing at that squad - it was over 300m away and there was German infantry between the gun and the Americans that had not even been engaged yet.

+1 for cover armor

Ian

[Renaud]

+1 for armor cover arcs. Lack thereof could be a big problem with tank+infantry fights...no way to prevent my tank from firing on that scout team just prior to enemy tanks appearing. The idea of setting stunted cover arcs, or just hiding, is OK unless you are trying to cover a keyhole approach - human players will know they can either lead with a scout team to make you uncover, or move fast to clear the covered area before end of round. In WEGO this is a problem, not so much in a small RT vs. AI game, since I can pause anytime and give orders (I hate playing RT, I end up pausing the game every 5-10 seconds and micromanaging everything...games take 2x as long to finish).

I also ko'd the road-to-berlin AT gun easily, before moving any armor into view, because they stupidly opened up on infantry in a hedgerow from long range and were spotted...mortar then made short work of it. This significantly reduces the threat of AI AT guns. Perhaps this behavior can be adjusted through AI plan tweaking.

Somehow I spotted a '?' there even before the AT gun opened fire, and subsequently was able to hose the area with MG/small arms. Could the recon by fire have caused the AT gun to break cover and open fire at a stupid target?

[Mikkey]

+1 for Cover Armor Arc

[sburke]

also

shreck teams may require a look at

in the same scenario,the shreck team gave away its position,whilst i was moving it into position for a shot on a sherman,by,the 2nd member of said team,opens fire on the sherman with his rifle,alerting the tank crew and getting themselves killed,BEFORE the shreck fires a shot,the fool

Hopefully not too close a look. Probably 3rd time I have repeated this, but I loved the scene. I had a PF team sneak up to a hedgerow. One guy pulls out his MP and guns down a breaching team on the other side while the second nails a Sherman nearby and then the two of them combined to gun down the crew as it exited.

Before we decide something needs fixing, let's make sure it is broke as in my instance the behavior as it stands produced a stunning moment of coordinated action. In your instance what if the rifleman had nailed the TC (who was probably exposed and therefore the goal of the rifle shot)?

[Fetchez la Vache]

Hear hear. I would like a armour cover arc as well.

Lost 11 men to one shot of PaK HE, but that ID'd the gun and after that it was 60mm toast. Would this have been a realistic outcome irl?

[Peregrine]

Hopefully not too close a look. Probably 3rd time I have repeated this, but I loved the scene. I had a PF team sneak up to a hedgerow. One guy pulls out his MP and guns down a breaching team on the other side while the second nails a Sherman nearby and then the two of them combined to gun down the crew as it exited.

Before we decide something needs fixing, let's make sure it is broke as in my instance the behavior as it stands produced a stunning moment of coordinated action. In your instance what if the rifleman had nailed the TC (who was probably exposed and therefore the goal of the rifle shot)?

The first shot is the most important one and should be the schrek. The crew should be aiming to kill the tank and not a single soldier.

[WineCape]

Armor Arc: Chances are this feature will possibly be included for the "next major release" when, at that time, BFC will also have a re-look at their proposed new UI for the game due to the dramatic impact of armor arcs on TacAI behavior. "Not until then" is the official word.

[BDW]

+1 for covered armor arc OR default behaviour AT gun does not engage infantry w/o direct order to do so. Likewise, +1 for small arms does not engage armor w/o direct order from player.

[LemoN]

+1 for armour arc.

[noxnoctum]

+1 for covered armor arc OR default behaviour AT gun does not engage infantry w/o direct order to do so. Likewise, +1 for small arms does not engage armor w/o direct order from player.

The latter part of this post is v. important too. Very irritating for infantry to expose themselves for no reason when they can do NOTHING to an enemy tank. Maybe they could code it so infantry only engage at grenade range or whatever the ideal range is for any AT weapons they are carrying (fausts, etc.). By default that is. Obviously there are some instances where you would want to gamble an infantry squad on the off chance of killing the TC... or if you're facing an open-topped SPG or something like that.

[Baneman]

Yes, perhaps default behaviour could be addressed as a "Quick Fix" which would be workable while the long-term Armour-Arc is looked at in depth.

I of course have no idea if such a thing would be easier to code, but it sounds logical since there must be some sort of default behaviour coded.