Is Gameplay Better Than CMBB, How?

[~Viajero]

Echo, you'll be happy to hear that CMBN comes with (the last time I counted) 312 pre-made QB maps, including AI plans and everything else you need for some very good randomly generated QBs, thanks to very dedicated beta testers.

There are also QB map packs available for CMSF, btw, and IIRC some are included in the modules, too.

Hi Moon,

Do you know if units have been given the relevant victory point allocation? I ve heard that in SF most of the pre made scenarios almost did not give any weight to troops so it is all about flags no matter the losses (which makes a Nabla system tourney less efficient when tracking comparative scores)

Is this still the case?

[Greup]

Having nothing else to do (than to perform my busy daytime job) I can't resist the urge to add some semi-irrelevant noise:

Personally I find the process of creating algorithms for randomly generating things intriguing. Like many have said though, it's no easy work if you want good results.

Instead of the out-ruled random-map QB generator I think would be interesting to develop an assistant tool for the mapmaker. Something that could help outputting a map that would have basic credibility for the area depicted (in this case Normandy). A basic map - in terms geographical features like height differences, terrain type mix etc, that you as a user could improve upon with features like roads, buildings etc.

That way even a person who never ventured out of South Dakota, South Africa or South Korea without any specific wish to be historically/geographically correct but with a nack for creating good scenarios could produce believable maps.

On the other hand: Those of you fortunate to be young enough might just have to wait a few decades and you'll have the the world's geographical + meteorological data for your game's date and location in your BFC GHQBG:E (Grogoholically Historic Quick Battle Generator Earth).

-- Greup

PS.

From Wikipedia: The GHQBG is a product series developed by BFC with funding from a Swiss Magnate, later known as the King of China having left Europe declaring that the EU rulers in reality were KGB agents and that the US were more interested in China than Europe.

After buying China he appointed the VP of BFC to Chairman of the Chinese Big Time Party who in initiated the CM:NG project (China Misson: No Game) which led to the One and Only Simulator (No Game) we have today.

Actual development started secretly in 2012 before moving to China and never stopped. Just before retirement into his cryochamber in 2042 Chairman Steve said: "No matter what you simulate we've got you covered - just dial in the date and time and hit 'Rawk' and you've got the Grogoholically Correct Forces, environmental settings and smells. We've just ironed out the last bugs for transitions between the Gregorian, Mayan and Juilan calendars in different historical countries so you should be good to go to any particular place in time on earth. Myself, I'm taking a brief hibernation until it's time to release GHQBG:U"

[hoolaman]

In an attempt to answer the OP:

A really big change is the sense of just how many dudes are in these fighting formations and how much space they take up. Even with CMx2 bunching them up a bit too much

the 1:1 is a big change. CMx1 with its squads that exist as singularity points in space cannot give any idea of how much space 30 men must occupy.

CMx2 terrain is more complex but at the same time the tile-based system gives a bit more of a Steel Panthers hexfeel to squad moves. Instead of CMx1 terrain LOS being high res showing across nice neat squares of translucent glass (forests), LOS in CMx2 is is a tile based rather low res 8x8 metres, complicated with sub-tile elements, and with the multiple LOS heights the game exists truly in 3D.

It seems to me when comparing the two games that each squad in CMx1 was like a vehicle with hitpoints. The infantry model in the new engine is vastly changed.

[stikkypixie]

In an attempt to answer the OP:

A really big change is the sense of just how many dudes are in these fighting formations and how much space they take up. Even with CMx2 bunching them up a bit too much

the 1:1 is a big change. CMx1 with its squads that exist as singularity points in space cannot give any idea of how much space 30 men must occupy.

CMx2 terrain is more complex but at the same time the tile-based system gives a bit more of a Steel Panthers hexfeel to squad moves. Instead of CMx1 terrain LOS being high res showing across nice neat squares of translucent glass (forests), LOS in CMx2 is is a tile based rather low res 8x8 metres, complicated with sub-tile elements, and with the multiple LOS heights the game exists truly in 3D.

It seems to me when comparing the two games that each squad in CMx1 was like a vehicle with hitpoints. The infantry model in the new engine is vastly changed.

LOS in CMx2 is point to point. The LOS checks on the 8x8m squares are a rough filter, reducing impossible combinations. If it is possible a much more detailed LOS check is performed and then the LOF calculations are done.

The biggest change for me is that squads no longer act like one big lump. In CMBB if a squad gets suppressed, everyone gets down; if a squad routs everyone routs. This made it impossible to for example break contact, because running back the whole squad will get suppressed and everyone dies. In CMx2, what happens that some guys will make it out and some guys don't. Some guys will shoot and some guys won't.

[Jaws]

Its more detailed and has a realistic look and feel then CMBB.

I am playing a campaign and starting to feel responsible not only for my men but also my material. I.e. I want to move to a fire position in a bocage line. 1st I bring my mortar in position and the ammo team close to it in case its running out of ammo. Next I select a squad, detach a scout element and move it to the position, then I bring the squad and finally the platoon. After they are deployed I send in my armour.. no not just drive them to them.. 1st I destroy with my Sherman’s main gun the wooden fence gate to prevent track damage. Then I navigate them with slow orders step by step through the gate. Finally I move them towards the infantry platoon. In the old days I would drive the armour 1st and took the risk it would be knocked out.

Making maps in the editor is also fun. With tools like google maps you can pick any place in France and create it for CMBN. There is so many documentation these days on internet you can recreate any historic battle you like and far more realistic then in the old days.

CMBN It’s so real you can almost smell it.

[mjkerner]

Its more detailed and has a realistic look and feel then CMBB.

I am playing a campaign and starting to feel responsible not only for my men but also my material. I.e. I want to move to a fire position in a bocage line. 1st I bring my mortar in position and the ammo team close to it in case its running out of ammo. Next I select a squad, detach a scout element and move it to the position, then I bring the squad and finally the platoon. After they are deployed I send in my armour.. no not just drive them to them.. 1st I destroy with my Sherman’s main gun the wooden fence gate to prevent track damage. Then I navigate them with slow orders step by step through the gate. Finally I move them towards the infantry platoon. In the old days I would drive the armour 1st and took the risk it would be knocked out.

Making maps in the editor is also fun. With tools like google maps you can pick any place in France and create it for CMBN. There is so many documentation these days on internet you can recreate any historic battle you like and far more realistic then in the old days.

CMBN It’s so real you can almost smell it.

Oh man, I think I'm getting wet!

[dkchapuis]

I'm saying that if he must accept that others may have a different point of view than his own. In this case that hand made maps are a step forward over random maps, not a step back as he feels they are.

Obviously I lack in communication skills, because I never said hand made maps are a step backward. The best maps are without a doubt hand-made.

And I wont try to clarify anything else, because apparently I am not very good at it.

[Comandante]

However, we will never have randomly generated maps in CMx2.

Steve

Why not just have a 'random' map option that picks a map from the 300 plus sitting in the application folders at random? As new maps are added, the selection takes the growing list into account.

So, the map isn't generated as such - it had to be created by a developer or a modder, but the player doesn't know which map he's going to get. Surely that would be a low cost way of pleasing everyone?

[stikkypixie]

Why not just have a 'random' map option that picks a map from the 300 plus sitting in the application folders at random? As new maps are added, the selection takes the growing list into account.

So, the map isn't generated as such - it had to be created by a developer or a modder, but the player doesn't know which map he's going to get. Surely that would be a low cost way of pleasing everyone?

It's already in.

[ChrisND]

Why not just have a 'random' map option that picks a map from the 300 plus sitting in the application folders at random? As new maps are added, the selection takes the growing list into account.

This already exists, and has since the start of CMSF, I am pretty sure. Steve was referring to randomly generated maps.

[Kilroy Lurking]

66 and counting....

Was first introduced to wargaming in the mid fifties when my Dad gave me a copy of "Little Wars" by H.G. Wells. He said that this was a whole lot more interesting than setting up lead soldiers and blasting them with my older brother's .22 air rifle...

Fond memories of parquet floors, wooden blocks, carefully measured lengths of white strings and wheel mounted 6" naval guns amid mixed hoards of tin and plastic soldiers (and horses).

By the by: to all who are eagerly waiting the Demo, I seem to remember that Battlefront's Policy is to get the full game out the door first and only then work on the demo.

David

[Battlefront.com]

As stated, the game already randomly chooses a pre-made map from your QB Maps folder. Each QB Map is tagged so that the game knows how to pick the best one to fit your requested map type. The more maps you have the more variety there is to pick from.

At one point we were thinking of having randomly assembled maps. Not generated, but pieced together from pre-made "Mega Tiles". Sorta like some old board wargames, such as Settlers, ASL, Panzer Leader, etc. Now we're rethinking that because it would be a huge undertaking and it appears that the pre-made map concept we have now is going to be sufficient for most QB players most of the time. Which means the large chunk of resources needed for the Mega Tile system would be better invested elsewhere.

Steve

[Broadsword56]

Good decision, Steve.

[dkchapuis]

At one point we were thinking of having randomly assembled maps. Not generated, but pieced together from pre-made "Mega Tiles". Sorta like some old board wargames, such as Settlers, ASL, Panzer Leader, etc. Now we're rethinking that because it would be a huge undertaking and it appears that the pre-made map concept we have now is going to be sufficient for most QB players most of the time. Which means the large chunk of resources needed for the Mega Tile system would be better invested elsewhere.

Steve

Big thumbs up from me too. I'd rather have other gameplay and game features than this (or auto-maps), e.g Co-play.

And that isnt sarcasm.

[Doug Williams]

Well, I must agree with the others who believe that one of the best features of the CMx1 games was the Quick Battle system with it's computer generated maps. The fact that the CMx2 engine does not allow for that, but rather makes you use pre-made maps is definitely a step backward, in my opinion. While I certanly acknowledge that player made maps are better for the "canned" battles, where everything is set up by the scenario designer, the randomness of the quick battle system and the computer generated maps are what give the CMx1 games almost infinite replayability, i.e. the "sandbox" as someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

Randomly picking from "canned" maps, as CMx2 does, is going to be a poor substitute, IMO, taking away some of the enjoyment of the Quick Battle system. I'll just have to wait and see how it plays. It's not a game breaker for me by any means, just a feature that I (and others, it seems) am mildly disappointed that it did not migrate over from CMx1.

Quick question: In a Quick Battle, human Vs human, how is it handled if the computer picks a random map from the folder of Player 1, and Player 2 does not have that map?

As stated, the game already randomly chooses a pre-made map from your QB Maps folder. Each QB Map is tagged so that the game knows how to pick the best one to fit your requested map type. The more maps you have the more variety there is to pick from.

At one point we were thinking of having randomly assembled maps. Not generated, but pieced together from pre-made "Mega Tiles". Sorta like some old board wargames, such as Settlers, ASL, Panzer Leader, etc. Now we're rethinking that because it would be a huge undertaking and it appears that the pre-made map concept we have now is going to be sufficient for most QB players most of the time. Which means the large chunk of resources needed for the Mega Tile system would be better invested elsewhere.

Steve

[LJFHutch]

Quick question: In a Quick Battle, human Vs human, how is it handled if the computer picks a random map from the folder of Player 1, and Player 2 does not have that map?

It probably just copies it across, most maps [CMSF] are about 2.5mb (most of that is briefing images). I'm pretty sure that's how it's handled in SF, can't remember if I've had that situation though.

[Paper Tiger]

Doug

Trust me! After you see the quality of the maps that'll come with the game you'll never be able to go back to playing on truly sh!tty randomly generated maps. I am screaming with frustration reading this because the Beta Testers are not allowed to post screenshots without permission. I have some fantastic screenshots of some of the maps I've been working on for QBs. They're based on real life locations that I am truly familiar with and it sends shivers up and down my spine when I view them down at level 1 or 2 in the editor. They are almost photorealistic. (I used a screenshot of one of my campaign maps as a desktop and my wife was fooled into thinking it was real for a few seconds) If you view them with the wind animating the terrain with your eyes slightly closed, they DO look real. And as for those folks who think that the building skins are no better than CMx1 skins, just wait until you guys see how wrong you have been.

[womble]

Randomly picking from "canned" maps, as CMx2 does, is going to be a poor substitute, IMO, taking away some of the enjoyment of the Quick Battle system.

I don't get this as a blanket statement. Yes, a random generator is capable of producing an infinite number of fresh new maps. Yes, once you start to run out of pregenerated maps in your favourite size/terrain type, you will either need to find new ones or will start to run into ones you've already played on. Until that point, having a random map from a pregenerated selection is, as far as I can tell, precisely the same as having the game scrape you together a random map, only less likely to land you with something unpalatable to play on.

I can see that 'having to go look for new maps' once in a while is a chore that a random generator would avoid, and I'm hoping that there will be good support for that activity, but that's for 'some other folk', because I'm having difficulty seeing how I'll ever have the time to play enough QBs to exhaust the initial tranche provided. For me, in the special case of QB maps, 300+ (with more each module) looks like it tends towards infinity.

And I emphatically can't see that a random pregenerated map is any less fun than a random map, even given a 'good' (for whatever value of 'good' floats your particular semisubmersible ) random generator. Perhaps unless you enjoy having improbable (read 'unexpected, unpredictable challenges', I guess) terrain across which to fight...

It remains to be seen whether having human-designed maps is actually significantly more 'fun' than the old CM maps were. The testers are all enthusiastic, but you'd expect that

[Doug Williams]

And I emphatically can't see that a random pregenerated map is any less fun than a random map, Perhaps unless you enjoy having improbable (read 'unexpected, unpredictable challenges', I guess) terrain across which to fight...

I think you just hit the nail on the head. The very randomness of the computer generated maps, and the challenges they present, are part of the fun of Quick Battles in CMx1. Of course, player made maps are going to be more realistic depections of actual terrain. That's part of the fun of the designed scenarios....playing realistic (as realistic as possible) representations of actual battles. Quick Battles are all about the randomness, and the map generator of the CMx1 Quick Battles did the job admirably, IMO. Sure, you sometimes got some crappy, er...."challenging", maps, but that was part of the fun (for me).

I can tell you than in all the years I have been playing CMx1, and I started the day CMBO was released, and they are still on my hard drive, I have probably played five times as many Quick Battles as I have played player designed scenarios. For me the Quick Battles are a *huge* part of the fun of CMx1. I hope they are just as fun in CMBN.

This is all beating a dead horse anyway. Even if Steve called me on the phone today (ROFLMAO) and asked me if I wanted him to delay the release of CMBN so he could add a random map generator to CMBN, I would tell him "Hell no! Release it as is!" ;-)

[panzermartin]

The problem is that 300+ QB maps and judging from CMSF stock QB maps, can have an impact on quality. 70% You get really plain maps, with a hill or two and patches of woods here and there. I would smile if someone can claim these are more interesting than auto-generator's. In CMx1 after 1-2 tries and the right settings combo you could get some real gems, with great elevation sculpture and interesting foliage placement. There were some maps that I wish I could have saved them for a scenario. I expect some of the 300 CM:BN maps to be really nice but I dont think tis possible we can avoid those boring football fields with an obj in the middle.

Oh well, the good news is that we can pick our own so no real damage.

[womble]

In CMx1 after 1-2 tries...

Did you retry that often? Given that if you did, you had to re-select your forces? And how much of an inhibition was that to discarding a given map?

judging from CMSF stock QB maps, can have an impact on quality. 70% You get really plain maps, with a hill or two and patches of woods here and there....I expect some of the 300 CM:BN maps to be really nice but I dont think tis possible we can avoid those boring football fields with an obj in the middle.

Of course, that remains to be seen, but there have been some pretty emphatic noises from the testers that would seem to indicate that your fears may be somewhat unfounded. Let's hope it's not their love of the game blinding them to its lacks

[GonzoAttacker]

QB question. Are objectives and setup zones defined on QB maps by map designer?

[panzermartin]

Did you retry that often? Given that if you did, you had to re-select your forces? And how much of an inhibition was that to discarding a given map?

Of course, that remains to be seen, but there have been some pretty emphatic noises from the testers that would seem to indicate that your fears may be somewhat unfounded. Let's hope it's not their love of the game blinding them to its lacks

Well part of the fun was selecting your forces, so I had n problem, except when I got something special like a KingTiger with -10% discount heh.

[stikkypixie]

Quick question: In a Quick Battle, human Vs human, how is it handled if the computer picks a random map from the folder of Player 1, and Player 2 does not have that map?

It's handled the same way when two humans play a scenario and only the player setting up the battle has the scenario.

[stikkypixie]

The problem is that 300+ QB maps and judging from CMSF stock QB maps, can have an impact on quality. 70% You get really plain maps, with a hill or two and patches of woods here and there. I would smile if someone can claim these are more interesting than auto-generator's. In CMx1 after 1-2 tries and the right settings combo you could get some real gems, with great elevation sculpture and interesting foliage placement. There were some maps that I wish I could have saved them for a scenario. I expect some of the 300 CM:BN maps to be really nice but I dont think tis possible we can avoid those boring football fields with an obj in the middle.

Oh well, the good news is that we can pick our own so no real damage.

The stock QB maps in CMSF were originally made in 2007. If you see the new QB maps, you might notice a small difference. I would smile at such pessimism .