Sailor Malan2 Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I dropped out when CM2 came out (subject matter - no real interest in the modern asymetric warfare). But now I am back (used to be the Mk1 version, but had to launch the Mk2 version of my tag to get back on). Good to see some old traditions still live on (e.g. Peng thread) On to the question: all the screenshots I have seen of Normandy preview seem to show very tightly packed infantry. Is this real (in the game), and is this realistic. When I was in the cadets, our instructor (in those far off, far less correct times) would have been yelling at us something very unprintable about our physical feelings for eachother if we had ever been that close... got to be at least 2-3yds apart even in thick cover, and far further in open... Or is my view incorrect for WW2 in Normandy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I dropped out when CM2 came out (subject matter - no real interest in the modern asymetric warfare). But now I am back (used to be the Mk1 version, but had to launch the Mk2 version of my tag to get back on). Good to see some old traditions still live on (e.g. Peng thread) On to the question: all the screenshots I have seen of Normandy preview seem to show very tightly packed infantry. Is this real (in the game), and is this realistic. When I was in the cadets, our instructor (in those far off, far less correct times) would have been yelling at us something very unprintable about our physical feelings for eachother if we had ever been that close... got to be at least 2-3yds apart even in thick cover, and far further in open... Or is my view incorrect for WW2 in Normandy? You are correct in your observations. The pixeltroops do bunch together too tight. Closer than one would expect. But this is due to inherent limitations to the game. Im not as well versed, but it has something to do with the tiles and how the troops are tied to them. One side effect of this is the arty is toned down. If a 155mm HE shell explodes in an airburst directly overhead and all troopers do not die, it is, in effect, an attempt to simulate how the troops are suppose to be properly dispersed. (As I have seen in CMSF) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 They aren't all that closely packed. An infantry squad (usually) is divided into 3 teams usually covering three action squares. If you want to split the squad you can space the individual teams a quarter mile apart of you want. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 You are correct in your observations. The pixeltroops do bunch together too tight. Closer than one would expect. But this is due to inherent limitations to the game. Im not as well versed, but it has something to do with the tiles and how the troops are tied to them. One side effect of this is the arty is toned down. If a 155mm HE shell explodes in an airburst directly overhead and all troopers do not die, it is, in effect, an attempt to simulate how the troops are suppose to be properly dispersed. (As I have seen in CMSF) Yep, it keeps the overheads to something manageable. The more action spots a unit covers the more it affects the spotting calculations. As you say, other effects have been tuned to allow for this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I'd venture to say the tactical spacing of the CMx2 game engine will be more realistic for WWII infantry than it is for modern day BLUE forces in CMSF. Squad tactical drills weren't as refined in WWII as they are for today's soldiers. While WWII tactical manuals do indeed advise of the dangers of "bunching up", especially in column, and noncoms would be barking out "Spread out, dammit!", small teams or even entire squads of green draftees would still tend to do so under stress. Take a look at (unposed) combat pics of WWII riflemen in action -- they really don't look much different than the pixeltruppen. In my opinion, CM ought to "un-nerf" HE for this reason. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillLight Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Also, the prevalence of personal radios in modern western armies allows for more spaced out squads than the demands of control and communication would have allowed in WW2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik mond Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Depends on Terrain. Squadies have to keep LOS with each other on the move. Especially in WW2. So in built up areas or in brush this would appear to be somewhat in keeping with reality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I think the current spacing is most practical. A broadly spread out squad might look more realistic but I bet it would be a gameplay nightmare in most situations. In the future a "spread out" command as the positional AI is perfected, might come handy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogCBrand Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I think the current spacing is most practical. A broadly spread out squad might look more realistic but I bet it would be a gameplay nightmare in most situations. In the future a "spread out" command as the positional AI is perfected, might come handy. I think you may be right. There's that issue of the balance of realism and playability. There's a part of me that would like a game that is as realistic as possible, but another part of me knows that too real can be little fun to play. I don't envy game designers having to find that balance that will make the most people happy, when there'll always be many who want it shifted one way or the other. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Malan2 Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share Posted April 17, 2011 Thanks, very good responses. I thought about the tile issue after I posted. Splitting the squad in to teams does mitigate it a little. Of course, the toned down art is a partial fix. Should really be toned down as a function of the experience of the squad... green squads should have little or no reduction, elite should ahve quite a lot. Other than allowing units to be in more than one tile, cant really see the solution. Individual man=unit? I.e. the squad becomes a C2 devise not the unit... In otherwords I haven't bought a CMx2 game and I already want CMx3! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I'd venture to say the tactical spacing of the CMx2 game engine will be more realistic for WWII infantry than it is for modern day BLUE forces in CMSF. Squad tactical drills weren't as refined in WWII as they are for today's soldiers. While WWII tactical manuals do indeed advise of the dangers of "bunching up", especially in column, and noncoms would be barking out "Spread out, dammit!", small teams or even entire squads of green draftees would still tend to do so under stress. Take a look at (unposed) combat pics of WWII riflemen in action -- they really don't look much different than the pixeltruppen. In my opinion, CM ought to "un-nerf" HE for this reason. I hear what you're saying, but (intake of breath), err be careful of overstating it. Taking Brits here: section drils were not that far off recent times with the exception of taking down rooms. It some point it'd be good to see formations, like double file along a track; extended line etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 It some point it'd be good to see formations, like double file along a track; extended line etc. Agreed. Might be a total PITA to try to code the animation and all the AI to go with it, but I'd love to see it. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed. Might be a total PITA to try to code the animation and all the AI to go with it, but I'd love to see it. Michael PITA, yes. But they managed it for infantry behaviour around terrian such as walls. I'd assume if they ever get to it most of it would be done by the TAC AI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boresite Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 PITA, yes. But they managed it for infantry behaviour around terrian such as walls. I'd assume if they ever get to it most of it would be done by the TAC AI. PITA?!!? I didn't think that was showing up until the Commonwealth module... (I will freely accept groans for my WWII historical reference pun.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 PITA?!!? I didn't think that was showing up until the Commonwealth module... (I will freely accept groans for my WWII historical reference pun.) No no no. You're thinking of pita bread. That was in CMSF. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzermartin Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Pita giros? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Pita giros? Thanks, I like those. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJJ Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Pita giros? Those are coming in the Mediterranean module, no? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillLight Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Those are coming in the Mediterranean module, no? Nah mate, if you buy the steel box you get some right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13 Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Would be pretty nifty if there were squad formations. But, understandably, it's not done. How many times have I ordered my little pixeljoes along a danger area, the whole while thinking...any second a well placed mg team is gonna light em up. And I'll keep ordering them across. Mwhahahaha. 2nd Squad: 'Where's first squa.....OH GOD THEY'RE ALL DEAD...!' Me: Move along, nothing to see here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Ah mannn, I loved those Pita giros. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krilly Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 If you know your squadmates just had giros I bet you would watch your spacing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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