Inter- and Intra-Building LOS/LOF

[c3k]

Gents,

While we are waiting for 1.32 and the better goodness it will shower upon us, I thought I'd share a thought. Or two.

My men, in a playtest battle, have to assault into a building complex. The building is made up of several 8 level building tiles adjoining each other. The outer walls are solid. No LOS in or out. The inner walls are a nightmare. All the adjoining walls have many windows and doors. Some have the big window. You know, the bad one. So, I can anticipate being fired upon by the adjoining buildings.

BOOM! I blew the demo charges, busted into the ground floor simultaneously in several adjoining locations, and got wiped out. Not by guys IN the ground floor. Not by guys ADJACENT to where I'd entered. Some of the enemy were in the floor above. Okay, cool. Stairwells, firing holes, air ducts, spraying guns through the floor like they do in movies, whatever. It's abstracted.

What is, um, ABSURD, was getting effectively fired on by ALL THE OTHER GUYS. You know, like the ones UP ON THE 6TH LEVEL!! WITH RPGS!!! FROM THE NEXT ADJOINING BUILDING!!!!

C'mon man.

How can you DREAM of having an LOS or LOF from a 6 floor difference, from an adjoining building location. They had a shared wall. This is not firing at a nearby building; this is firing at a building you are part of.

Is this simulating sending RPG rounds through the little air tubes you can send messages through, like at the bank? Laundry chutes? RC cars with rockets duct taped to them careening through the hallways?

I don't have an 8 floor building, but looking around my house, I am unable to see through the floors, the ceilings, or the walls. Sure, I could knock a hole or two around the place, but then I wouldn't be able to see beyond the very next room or floor. How can my pixeltruppen SEE that far, and then EFFECTIVELY place rounds and ordnance there?

BF.C, is there ANY hope of tweaking this multi-floor LOS/LOF?

Thanks,

Ken

[Thomm]

Got a save game for someone to pick up?

Best regards,

Thomm

[c3k]

Hmm, definitely an orders phase, I'm not sure about the replay being saved...

I'm playtesting for the scenario author...

[Lanzfeld]

Yup....nightmare.

Me thinks an airstrike would be perfect but I am sure your ROE's wont let you.

[Thomm]

Hmm, definitely an orders phase, I'm not sure about the replay being saved...

Keep it! I am sure that a CM:SF beta tester will be around to pick it up and report.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Boche]

yeah I remember the factory mission, with uncons shooting my men entering the bottom floor from the top floor, hmmm

[stikkypixie]

Gents,

While we are waiting for 1.32 and the better goodness it will shower upon us, I thought I'd share a thought. Or two.

My men, in a playtest battle, have to assault into a building complex. The building is made up of several 8 level building tiles adjoining each other. The outer walls are solid. No LOS in or out. The inner walls are a nightmare. All the adjoining walls have many windows and doors. Some have the big window. You know, the bad one. So, I can anticipate being fired upon by the adjoining buildings.

BOOM! I blew the demo charges, busted into the ground floor simultaneously in several adjoining locations, and got wiped out. Not by guys IN the ground floor. Not by guys ADJACENT to where I'd entered. Some of the enemy were in the floor above. Okay, cool. Stairwells, firing holes, air ducts, spraying guns through the floor like they do in movies, whatever. It's abstracted.

What is, um, ABSURD, was getting effectively fired on by ALL THE OTHER GUYS. You know, like the ones UP ON THE 6TH LEVEL!! WITH RPGS!!! FROM THE NEXT ADJOINING BUILDING!!!!

C'mon man.

How can you DREAM of having an LOS or LOF from a 6 floor difference, from an adjoining building location. They had a shared wall. This is not firing at a nearby building; this is firing at a building you are part of.

Is this simulating sending RPG rounds through the little air tubes you can send messages through, like at the bank? Laundry chutes? RC cars with rockets duct taped to them careening through the hallways?

I don't have an 8 floor building, but looking around my house, I am unable to see through the floors, the ceilings, or the walls. Sure, I could knock a hole or two around the place, but then I wouldn't be able to see beyond the very next room or floor. How can my pixeltruppen SEE that far, and then EFFECTIVELY place rounds and ordnance there?

BF.C, is there ANY hope of tweaking this multi-floor LOS/LOF?

Thanks,

Ken

I have noticed this as well. It's crazy.

[c3k]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are 10,000.

The Building

Notice it is made up of 4 separate building tiles. Let's call them "A", "B", "C", and "D" from left to right. So the "E" in the word "DONE" is resting on a face of building "C". Kapisch?

From the perspective of the poor bloody infantry...

Looking at the interior, we can see that it could get dicey. Just look at all the windows and doorways...

Yeah, THAT'S why I blasted in...

Oooh, 3 separate assaults to overwhelm the buggers... That looks good up there, doesn't it?

[c3k]

What happened? Well, let's watch the guys up above...

Second floor shooters in "B", 2nd floor, are nailing at least "C" ground floor (possibly "D"). LOS/LOF from B2 to C1. Iffy, but we could possibly live with it...

A close up...

But what's this? Hits from WAY above?

Okay, B6 to C1? Maybe I'm not seeing it right? I drew a red line along the gun barrel to get this...

Finally, in case you think that's a one-off LOS, never to be repeated, here's the money shot:

Tracers crossing from the Syrians up on B6 firing at A1.

BF.C????

[c3k]

Oh, savegames available, both command phase and replay.

BF.C???

[Erwin]

You are correct that there are many problems like this one. But, it is just a game. The problem I think comes from some folks getting so into the game that they post tactical treatises as if this was a realistic training simulation.

As I have said before, with platoon level actions in conventional (relatively boring) situations, CMSF may work as a sort of trainer of concepts. Once we get to the size and sophistication of the scenario you depict, CMSF breaks down as a simulation and one needs to learn how to play the game in order to win the game, and RL experience can be more of a hindrance.

There are so many aspects of CMSF that are not amenable to common sense nor is RL applicable. It's just a kick-ass game.

[c3k]

Very true; GREAT game. But, this isn't right in a tactical simulation game. There needs to be some LOS/LOF fudges or workarounds. The one way nature of friendly vehicle LOF is on case. But this, similar to rooftop benefits against artillery, doesn't pass the "sniff" test.

I am hopeful that it is a simple fix. It may be limited to units firing down through adjacent floors. I don't know. More testing? I'm willing to forego playing and run tests, but not if there is no interest in following up on this.

Ken

[Mord]

I wonder if it has something to do with the windows being on the interior walls...like, because of that the engine isn't seeing the various floors between the shooters and the Brits? As if the game is looking at those windows as if they were on the outside of the building facing the ground? Hence there'd be nothing to block LOS? Does that make sense?

Mord.

[LongLeftFlank]

This seems to be a map design problem more than a game engine problem. Interior partitions shouldn't include windows -- they should either be matching pairs of doors, impassable solid walls or no walls at all.

[DaveDash]

There are LOS issues in the game still that make it frustrating in those decisive moments. Such as vehicles not being able to area fire at a building directly infront of it, but bring able to engage infantry inside the building when their contact pops up.

Also vehicles not being able to area fire at ATGMs who CAN shoot at them.

Seems to be an area fire and vehicle issue. I have videos of this happening.

Still, the game is much improved from the good old days of not being able to shoot infantry on rooftops, etc

[Lanzfeld]

I wonder if it has something to do with the windows being on the interior walls...like, because of that the engine isn't seeing the various floors between the shooters and the Brits? As if the game is looking at those windows as if they were on the outside of the building facing the ground? Hence there'd be nothing to block LOS? Does that make sense?

Mord.

^^^ This^^^

[MeatEtr]

I refer to this problem or oddity as the Runaway effect. Named after the legendary movie with Tom Selleck and Gene Simmons.

Seen here at 1:55 in and again at 4:30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfaibUieZUc

Enjoy and don't miss his demise at the end by his own spider bots.

[c3k]

Yes, but what does BF.C refer to it as?

(THAT was a funny movie. I hate to admit it, but at some point I wasted part of my life watching that. I wonder if I could've cured cancer had I focused on that, instead?)

Ken

[stikkypixie]

I'm bumping this sucker as it is something that annoys me.

[Crender]

It seems to be a scenario design issue. Whilst things are a lot better than they were 3 years ago, there are still some problems associated with buildings. What can and cannot be done (and so should be avoided) with buildings is still unclear to some scenario designers. IMHO keeping building layouts relatively simple puts less stress on the game mechanics and leads to fewer building-related WTF!! moments!

No criticism of scenario designers intended - I couldn,t design one for toffee!

[mjkerner]

I think Mord is on to something. When I first glanced at the screen shots, I thought the interior was an open atrium/courtyard-type area with balconies on each floor looking down on it.

Those interior windows just shouldn't be there. Doors yes, windows no.

[c3k]

I disagree: interior windows, doors, solid walls, or no walls are all options built into the editor. I will ascribe to BF.C (I may be mistaken) a statement to the effect that the various internal wall options allow the designer to create different interior effects. Windows allow fire, but no movement. Doors alone allow movement, but no fire. Etc.

The interiors are abstracted. The interior wall options are there on purpose.

None of this answers the LOF firing THROUGH multiple floors. (I've seen men traveling inside a non-window, non-doored series of rooms get shot through the roof from a unit in a different building with a single level height advantage; sky-light simulation?)

The interior LOS/LOF is a bit too loose, IMHO.

Ken

[toxic.zen]

I'm not terribly happy with how this unfolded, as i saw the allies storming up the floors securing them one by one. as it is i don't see a way around it, other than placing the defenders in more out of the way locations in the building, or setting them to ambush from only really close up. this is still a work in process in many ways though. the allies seem to be outgunned and may need a tank or more artillery...

[toxic.zen]

This seems to be a map design problem more than a game engine problem. Interior partitions shouldn't include windows -- they should either be matching pairs of doors, impassable solid walls or no walls at all.

it may be worth it to go into those buildings and re-do the interiors... time consuming but if it works, than worht it. if not, than i will need to smash something... :mad:

[LongLeftFlank]

I think Mord is on to something. When I first glanced at the screen shots, I thought the interior was an open atrium/courtyard-type area with balconies on each floor looking down on it.

That would be a common layout for older apartment buildings in downtown Damascus and other major Middle Eastern cities (especiallly Istanbul). It's called a "han" (haveli in India) -- basically a 3-4 story apartment building with windows or balconies facing into a large interior courtyard. A gated (often ornate) and arched passageway is the only way in from the street.

Hans originated as ancient caravanserais (i.e. semi-fortified inns where caravans/traders could rest safely with their goods) but over time transformed into apartments or the extended family homes/offices/warehouses of prominent merchant families. In the 19th century, traditional Arab/Persian and Ottoman architecture (think lots of arches) gave way to European neoclassical styles (fancy stonework like Paris). Hans were especially popular among minority communities like Armenians or Jews, and the complex might include a church/synagogue (since these couldn't front onto the streets out of deference to the dominant Muslim rulers). But most of those people are gone now, and they would just be conventional apartments or maybe office buildings.

My Ramadi map has a couple of such buildings in the Old Town section, and they are no friggin' fun to clear -- thick walls, limited access points and the central courtyard/entryway creates a natural kill sack. In the example shown, all the interior walls have connecting doors EXCEPT the entry -- and you can't access the roof because of the dome. So there is only one way to enter the complex....