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Fighting in forests


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How do the heck do you do this? I'm playing the warrior in the sands campaign and I have to fight through a patch of very thick forest (visibility around 50m). I order my squads to hunt, but as soon as they take fire at least 2-3 guys die immediately with the others cowering. Sending other squads in to help is not an option, because they too get mauled down by an invisible enemy. Grenades are especially deadly.

What's the best way of doing this?

Ps. I have a sneaking suspicion my guys bunch up too much.

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I've found it helps to be very slow and through and try to advance in a line with at least platoon strength (with the small brit platoons). By being in a broad line and advancing carefully, other squads/teams can support by area fire, even if they don't see the enemy.

Advance one fire team 50m then stop and observe, bound another team past them (using hunt), stopping and observing after a short move seems to occasional spot enemies after a few seconds that they would have missed while moving. It might be harder to do if your playing turn based (maybe not harder, but it may take you longer). Recon by fire can also be useful, to see if you can draw out some enemy return fire (doesn't work all the time and you still have to be relativley close). Even crawling forward may be useful if you know where the enemy is, but have to get closer to engage them.

If you take fire from an unspotted enemy, throw down tons of area fire.

If you have to go through dense woods and want to do it as safely as possible, it's going to take quite a bit of time.

That's my $.02 anyway.

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I don't believe there is a satisfactory answer to your question - fighting in forests always gives the defender a huge advantage and the attacker will always take disproportionate casualties.

In that scenario the solution is not to try and fight your way through the forest. There is a perfectly viable route round to the south(?) of it. Take the hills by your starting position and fed your reinforcements off to the right through the col and across the open area in a wide arc. Worked like a dream for me.

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How do the heck do you do this? I'm playing the warrior in the sands campaign and I have to fight through a patch of very thick forest (visibility around 50m).

Yeah, it's like masturbating with a cheese grater: slightly amusing, but mostly painful. And yet some people here would like to see something like "CM Vietnam" or "CM WW2 Pacific - Dense Jungle Fighting"...

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The most best tactic in the forest battle, when you tread and can not use artillery barrage:

Build your squads in line - almost shoulder to shoulder - at a distance of no more than 1 / 3 -1 / 2 of visibility (for a line of vision of 50 meters - will be 20-25 meters between squads with a maximum, and preferably 10-15).

Start doing the order - assault for half of the offices at a distance of 15-20 meters deep into the forest, make such orders 4-5-6. At each point of order - put fire on the territory, to a range of forward and as soon as possible (40-50 meters).

Tour squads will be running across half-squads of 15-20 meters, and continually shoot forward - into the thicket.

If you meet the enemy, there is a chance to crush it before visual contact is made. Nearby solders will take the enemy's flanks, it will be a bonus for the time of detection.

It is spending a lot of ammunition, but spends little soldiers. Of course - must have a lot of infantry and cach of ammunition behind in the APC.

But if you not have enough ammunition, not enough troops - why to go into the forest with evil enemy?

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I think Ryujin has mentioned a good approach to the situation,I notice he's always got top notch advice when he post's.;)

I also like Alek's approach and I might try that one time.It almost sounds like forming one big firing line and then constantly shooting in front of the line with a high level of fire as they march forward, the phalanx of bullets.:)

It would be nice if there was an animation in CMSF that allows your men to walk and shoot at the same time.

In real time play, I usually try to keep a platoon's squads close to each other, so they could support each other easily and when I say close I mean about 20-50 meters or so.Moving a platoon through the woods in a wedge formation i think would be one of the safest ways of maneuver.That way your flanks are protected and if the squad at the tip of the spear hits contacts,you can order one of the squads on the side of the wedge to flank the enemy from either side while the front squad puts down a lot of area fire in the direction of the enemy, or you can order the other squads to move up and to position themselves beside the front squad to get more fire power down range and form a line.

If maybe the contact proved to be to strong for the moment, the squad who was the tip of the wedge could be ordered to pullback (possibly assault back for team bounding over watch) between the other squads to break contact and form a line formation with your platoon.

If contacts hit one of your flanks as you move in a wedge formation in the forest, you could have the other flank run over to help it in the fire fight and flank the contact while the squad in the front of the wedge formation holds and guards the area.Or the front squad moves to flank or help put out more fire power while the other squad who has no contacts moves to where the front squad was.Or if the contact on the flank proves to be to strong you could once again withdraw beside the squad that's at the front of the wedge and as a result you have 2 squads ready for the contact in a L formation.You could also move the other squad to take up positions on which ever flank to form a platoon line or have that squad be the flanker as the other 2 squads move up to pin the enemy.

The wedge formation on a platoon level in CMSF i find is the most flexible formation that allows you to quickly set up your men to take on the threat without clustering them all in the woods and without having them to far apart so they cannot support each other.The flexibility of maneuver of the platoon wedge reminds me of the Roman manipular formation and the flexibility it offered them while maneuvering.The C2 squad can position themselves to watch the rear of the wedge and can make the formation look like a diamond or a triangle and that way the C2 should have good communication with his squads.

If I drop it down to 1 squad vs 1 squad, I think I would have to say whoever is able to pin the other squad and keep moving to assault from the flank will win.

I try to hunt to key terrain positions in the woods( high spots, or a position that allows you to see through a clearing or less dense wooded area from a heavily dense wooded area)and have them hold for a bit to catch their breath and look around.If contact is made on the move, right away I order the squad to area fire in the direction the shoots were heard.The area fire doesn't always have to be dead on in order to disrupt the foe's squad if you are Bluefor.I will then split teams and now start moving for a flank.As one team keeps putting down area fire on the enemies suspected position, the other team will quickly move towards the side (keeping them out of the fire lanes of the other team whose firing) and then will move up to get close to the flank of the enemy if not completely on it.The team that moved to flank will now put down area fire on the suspected enemy location and the other team will now move up to grenade range or into a better position to put more area fire on the suspected enemy (maybe you will have to do more bounding over watch moves to get to them,or maybe you can get to them in 2 moves,it all depends how far the enemy are).If they just put area fire down, then the flanking team will continue to flank and get themselves into grenade range.After the volley of grenades, you can tell both teams to hold fire and have any one of them to quickly run to the enemies location (should be at a close distance to the enemy now)and after a few steps your troops will be on top of the enemy who are trying to take cover and who are probably rattled and shaken.Your men will now be able to shoot whoever they see before the enemy have a chance to react.

This would have to be done fast so you don't burn out on ammo and the movements would have to be short, make the split teams move no more then 50 meters at a time.During the initial contact you could use heavy area fire to quickly pin the foe, but once the enemy are pinned down you could switch to light area fire to save on ammo.Also make sure only one squad gets into grenade range so the other squad can save their grenades for the next situation.

As for casualties,sometimes you get lucky and the foe miss's their first shots on your troops and your troops break their hunt order and drop down, and then your able to slowly move them into position if need be, to put down area fire as quick as can be, but sometimes you get unlucky and the foes opening shots hit 2 men.If you have other squads near to back up your one squad under contact, you can save yourself more hurt and as you press on you can get the C2 squad to take care of the wounded so your squads don't get distracted or held up by casualties.

That's my thought.:)

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And yet some people here would like to see something like "CM Vietnam" or "CM WW2 Pacific - Dense Jungle Fighting"...

guilty. :)

I think the posts here all pretty much sum up the problem and tactics. Very poor visilibity+good defensive position=attacker casualties.

Assuming you cannot simply bypass or use artillery, another thing to keep in mind is the importance of being patient. Moving units in short bounds and then waiting motionless several turns/minutes to see if they detect anything. Units can detect by hearing as well as sight in CMSF.

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I'll try the scenario again. The objective I have to take are located inside deep forests, so going around them is just not an option. It was just frustrating as my guys were being mowed down without me being to help.

I wonder, is there a way to have a squad move in line? I had a couple of instances where they were moving in file and took heavy casualties right a way, and I was wondering whether moving in line would help.

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I'll try the scenario again. The objective I have to take are located inside deep forests, so going around them is just not an option...

It is perfctly possible to win in that mission without getting bogged down in fighting through the forest. One just needs to think a little more creatively and put together a plan which plays to the British strengths (i.e. the fireposwer provided by the large number of vehicles) and not their weakness (small squads with poor ammo load-outs).

If I remember correctly the briefing suggests you should take the village then turn right and follow the road through the forest. If you do as the briefing suggests you will take a lot of casualties that are unlikely to be replaced and so you will suffer in the rest of the campaign (and British squads are weak enough at full strength).

This was my "AAR" post on the Warriors in the Sands thread on this site:

"Today I finally got round to finishing the second mission of this campaign. It was enjoyable, but not a stretch - possibly because I ignored the briefing and worked out my own plan (advancing through a forest struck me as a recipe for high casualties).

I lost 8 dead, 20 wounded, 2 Scimitars and 2 Land Rovers and got a surrender with 50 minutes left on the clock. The Brits in this one have more than enough firepower to do the job (one platoon, my reserve, never fired a shot) and more javelins than you can shake a stick at. About half of my casualties were caused by me pushing a couple of patrols onto the forest, which I didn't need to do, I just got bored/careless towards the end."

Fighting a battle the way the enemy wants is always messy and rarely successful.

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The briefing stated that taking the road ahead would be suicide and advised me to take the scenic route and put two objective there. What was is a man to do? Tell me? TELL ME?! :D

Fight the battle your way, not the enemy's way.

As a general note for the campaign, Bardosy seems to have put a lot of effort into crafting his briefings - following his suggested plans is not a good idea.

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Fight the battle your way, not the enemy's way.

Perhaps in this case that should be refined to "fight the battle your way, not the scenario designer way". I have started this mission so know the backstory, and the fighting through the woods is supposed to be not fighting the enemies way from the briefing, however being the rank amateur I am I could not even take the village without unacceptable casualties (to me anyway)

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  • 1 month later...

Am playing the same scenario and not having too much difficulty, but I may be going too slow to get the final objective. We'll see...

I have been leading with recon units on either side of the path, closely followed by a inf platoon for back-up, plus the scimitars and warriors. Generally, when an ambush is triggered it quickly comes under fire from the inf plus vehicles, and that suppresses the enemy quickly.

However, I took my time taking the village with minimal casualties, and after a while the enemy, including their tanks started coming out of the woods to attack my massed troops and vehicles(!) That made it easy to massacre them. I thought it a rather odd design decision. So, maybe I am only encountering the remnants in the woods.

Basically, one has to plan your advance and be ready to bring overwhelming fire on any ambush asap. (That is also how to take the village with minimal casualties.)

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Well... just completed the attack and the AI auto-surrendered with 20+ mins to go. Total Victory with 9 KIA, 30 WIA and 3 missing. 6 AFV and one "other" lost.

The frustration I have with this campaign after two missions is that the AI seems to get impatient with my slow, methodical attack and decided to instead attack my massed units - thus eliminating much of what could have been nasty surprises in the woods. In both scenarios this led to early capitulation. In the first scenario it was a very early surrender even though the enemy seemed to still have a fair amount of capability.

Nice in RL. But, in a game I feel a bit cheated of the fun of actually reaching my destination and accomplishing my objectives.

As someone said earlier, often many friendly casualties were suffered when I just got bored and careless, wanting to get it done. As a contrast I highly recommend the xnt Mud Marines scenario for a game that one savors every moment, and I actually like replaying bits to learn better how to play the game.

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Remember, too, that CMSF models 'Syrian'-style forest density. If you think its painful now I can only imagine what fighting your way through a European dense wood in mid July will be like! Happily for the allies coastal France is not exactly known for its vast stretches of tackless forest. Hedgerows every fifty feet was bad enough. :D;)

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guilty. :)

I think the posts here all pretty much sum up the problem and tactics. Very poor visilibity+good defensive position=attacker casualties.

Assuming you cannot simply bypass or use artillery, another thing to keep in mind is the importance of being patient. Moving units in short bounds and then waiting motionless several turns/minutes to see if they detect anything. Units can detect by hearing as well as sight in CMSF.

+1

Don't... Be... In... A... Hurry... To... Advance... I think that basically sums up the previous posts. Twitchy gamers hate to wait, men with superior firepower and their lives on the line will take all day. Same thing in MOUT.

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