Dieing on balconies

[A co]

I'm getting frustrated by the fact that I can't keep my men off the balcony of any floor they occupy.

Even when I had them face a wall where there was no balcony, one man went out on the end of the balcony of the adjoining wall and naturally got killed. And this a three man sniper team so it's not like the room was too crowded.

I suppose the game makes the men go where they can see best, but without regard to their own cover? Even when there's no railing or parapet they just run right out there and stand up waiting to get hit.

Anyway, this bugs me so much I wish there were no balconies in the game. (Even though they look cool and are there in real life.) The only reason to go out on a balcony IRL, I think, would be to see a target that is low and close. Otherwise you'd be fine behind the cover of the main building wall. It's not always feasible to avoid floors with balconies either.

Maybe I just have to make a bunch of maps of towns without balconies.

Anyone else bugged by this?

[costard]

G'day A co.

I find that if I go anywhere high and open I'll generally get snotted unless I use 'slow' and 'hide'. With modern weapons modeled the way they are here, I'm punished for making tactical mistakes - like choosing the wrong place to go - severely. This gets to be frustrating, granted, but we're capable of learning, no?

I have found balconies with solid walls effective ambush positions (though I'll still lose men when they open fire) - so a slow and hidden setup isn't too far fetched.

I admit that this means that certain places are pretty much "out of bounds" - if the enemy has a fire team in position capable of taking advantage of my blunder - but minefields are much the same (worse, much, much worse and see "Operation Pooh", where they're used with skill by the scenario designer) so I'm used to having to go out of my way to avoid stuff. Good luck helps.

[c3k]

Yeah, any floor with a balcony is a death trap. I only put men there if I've already cleared out all the nearby (100-200m) areas. Otherwise, I'll only enter a building with balconies if the balconies are facing AWAY from the enemy. As you noted, even being 90 degrees off will still lure men out there.

Ken

[SlapHappy]

Yeah, they love those balconies, don't they? You would think there was a cooler of beer and some steaks grilling on the bar-b-q on every one of them.......

[MikeyD]

I've added balconies to a few of my scenarios specifically to mess with the player. I mean, I don't want the player's use of a certain building to be without cost or threat. To balance that, I try hard to be careful how I place any mere 'eye candy' balconies so they don't get in the way.

This is one of those 'game features' where it makes a difference whether you're playing an initial release scenario or a later 3rd party or module scenario. Initial release everybody involved was a 'newbie' so could be excused for not realizing the headaches those pretty balconies might cause. Later scenarios, a badly placed balcony is just sloppy scenario design.

[YankeeDog]

It is definitely quite deadly to be standing on a balcony. I don't have any problem with this per se -- from what I can tell, the balconies on most modern construction are not of sturdy enough material to stop most small arms rounds, so anyone standing on one would be highly exposed as the bullets would be cutting right through the balcony.

But I really wish there was some way to tell your troops to fight from deeper inside a building. It is very frustrating when there's a building in a perfect defensive position, but you can't use it because it has balconies and you know any troops you place there are just going to be cut to ribbons.

My understanding is that it is SOP in MOUT situations for soldiers to fight from as deep inside buildings as possible, away from exterior walls and definitely NOT on balconies. AIUI, you actually want an exterior wall + an interior wall or other object between you and the outside whenever possible. For example, a MOUT-trained soldier fights from an interior doorway, firing across a room and through the exterior window, not right up against the exterior wall where he is more easily seen and hit.

There are occasions when you want a team standing right on a balcony, most commonly when you are planning on using the position as an OP, rather than a fighting position, and you don't expect the enemy to get very close. But the rest of the time, you usually want the soldiers in much deeper. I do recognize that this entails a trade-off. Units deeper inside buildings shouldn't spot as well, and may not be able to utilize all their firepower (i.e., more soldiers will be out of LOS of a given target).

I go to all sort of lengths in the game, using Facing and Hide orders to keep soldiers off balconies. Sometimes, you can do so. But not always.

To me the situation is similar to the issues the game used to have with crestlines. On a crest, you usually want as many individual soldiers as possible up in the "fighting crest" position, where they can see beyond and fire on targets, while still gaining some cover from terrain. But you don't want any soldier actually up on the very highest point of the crest (or worse, a bit beyond it), where they are easily seen have little or no cover. There have been quite a few tweaks to the game AI in this area, and in general teams use crestline fighting positions much more effectively now than they used to.

I'm not sure what the best solution to the balcony issue would be. Perhaps if the player places the endpoint for a order actually on a balcony, then at least one team from that unit would move out onto the balcony, but an endpoint inside the building proper would keep all of the unit's teams inside the building proper? I don't know if the game can differentiate endpoint placement this finely within an action spot, though.

Cheers,

YD

[A co]

Thanks for your responses, guys. Yankee Dog, the solution you suggest sounds like a good one- if the game engine would allow it.

Right now I'm playing the second battle of the Route Lightning Campaign (the Airfield), and trying to find every way I can to keep my forces from dying off before reaching all the objectives- thus my question. I hate it when my guys get killed without my permission.

[Clavicula_Nox]

The best thing to do is use your Mk 19 armed Strykers to blast a hole in the wall, move forward with your vehicles, smoke, and assault the buildings. I usually don't start taking buildings until I have all of my reinforcements (I think it's 1 platoon at start; 2 reinforcements?).

For that scenario, avoiding the road network is key to survival.

[Nicdain]

Actually, besides having the same problems as A co with balconies, I have them also with rooftops.

In one of the last scenario I played, I had a team (Army) on a 2 story building rooftop with walls completely annihilated by Syrian special forces in open ground. It was quite frustrating because I thought that rooftops (and what's more walls on rooftops!) could afford some protection and advantage.

Instead, they fell like flies one after the other, without causing much damage to the special forces squad.

[flamingknives]

What occurs to me with rooftops and balconies with solid walls is that the top has a clean, solid edge which means that anything appearing above it essentially skylined and much more visible. On top of that there is a handy aiming point for enemies to line up on so they can take the shot when your men pop up.

[cool breeze]

Id bet the syrians were higher experience, maybe elite?

[Nicdain]

anything appearing above it essentially skylined and much more visible

there is a handy aiming point for enemies to line up on so they can take the shot when your men pop up.

yes, I get your points and I agree.

But given the vulnerability of balconies and rooftops, there is virtually no advantage in gaining height with buildings to control the surrounding terrain. Does this actually reflect real life? It seems so about balconies, but what about rooftops?

[Nicdain]

Id bet the syrians were higher experience, maybe elite?

Yes you're right: syrians were elite and my men were regular. This must have played a role as well.

[A co]

Clavicula Nox- The method you describe for the scenario is roughly what I'm doing. I started by seizing two buildings with their own wall around them to be my own base within the airbase, while waiting for the rest of the company to arrive. Problem is, these buildings have nothing but balconies without railings. I should have stayed on the ground floor and used the little compound as merely a sheltered area, instead of hoping to use it as a base of fire of FO, sniper and MG's.

Nicdain, your point about reflecting the real-life advantage of being in a tall building seems to me to be the essential point here. I think the game falls down in this respect, simply because the men won't stay off the balconies.

[dan/california]

Maybe eventually they could program hide to keep people off of balconies. It would help a lot without being too much work.

[RadioactiveMan]

Balconies are indeed deathtraps, as are rooftops without walls.

When I play now I pretty much exclusively keep all my men on the ground floor of buildings unless there is significant advantage to moving them up a floor. The only time I am really comfortable moving up in a building is if the roof has high walls. The high-walled roof seems to provide good protection, provided no one can look down on your troops from a higher vantage point.

Typically I keep the infantry on the ground floor to provide security and observation while my AT, MG, or FO elements move to higher ground to get an advantage. I don't know if this reflects real-world tactics at all, but it has become my tried and tested CMSF-world tactical doctrine

[hcrof]

Actually RadioactiveMan that is exactly what happens in real life as far as I know although MG's can perform grazing fire at ground/basement level while protected from artillery. Sniper and FO elements get higher to see further and HQ elements stay 1 floor down from the top in order to see better and get better radio signal. AT units also usually stay high in order to try and get top hits.

None of this is set in stone however and local conditions obviously have an effect.

[MikeyD]

None of this is set in stone however

Yeh, probably not a good idea to stack all your men in the only multistory building on the top of a hill, for example. The opponent is liable to knock the building down just for fun without realizing you're in it!

[dan/california]

If it looks like a truly great position to you, it probably looks like a great position to the other sides FO too. Who then feels the urge to make it less great, with explosives.

[RadioactiveMan]

Sounds like an "if I can't have it, no one can" type of thing!

[Sequoia]

Just wanted to ask if any one knows if any thought has been given of late by Battlefront to keep to keep men off balconies unless you actually order them to go there? Sort of a make them a seperate room sort of thing

[MarkEzra]

Never mind

[Sequoia]

I know, if I read the whole thread, I would realise there's no need for Battlefront to do so if I use the slow and hide command etc. but It would be nice to rush them up the stairs to the windows but NOT the balconies.