RadioactiveMan

Syrian equipment varies quite a bit depending on the equipment quality indicated before purchase. Neat charts though!

I have a half-finished Red vs Blue campaign lurking in the depths of my hard drive... it gets tinkered with from time to time. While I agree that most people like Blue vs Red, I enjoyed Paper Tiger's (and others) Red vs Red. What is most interesting for me in Shock Force is small unit actions- even though the game engine has a little trouble with up close engagements. So when I went to design a Red vs Blue campaign, I went forward with smallish engagements in mind. A major problem with a Red vs Blue campaign of this sort quickly became apparent however- Red infantry is fragile! Particularly on the attack Its hard to keep a Red infantry core force intact. Something like Field Marshall Blucher's (I think they were his, anyway?) excellent single platoon campaigns are not feasible from a Red perspective. I came up with a bit of a workaround that (I think) makes for an interesting storyline with neat objectives. My campaign storyline goes something like this: American Army forces roll through your part of Syria and smash everything on their way inland. You are in command of a Special Forces company that was out in the field on training exercises when the invasion began. Because you were mobile, and not where US intel expected, you avoided the initial onslaught. I chose Special Forces for your core group because you get a bit better equipment, some interesting support squads (RPGs and snipers), they have relatively good command and communications, and because the infantry squads are splittable, something which almost all Syrians lack! The campaign structure is for your Special Forces company to operate behind enemy lines causing a ruckus where ever possible. The first scenario sees your company assaulting a lightly defended US checkpoint. To point out how fragile Syrian infantry is- the US force I built into this scenario is only an infantry platoon plus a pair of humvees, but if you mismanage your attack its quite easy to get 50% casualties right off the bat! The first scenario also introduces you to your major nemesis- a US Army Cavalry group is in the area to act as a rapid reaction force to counter efforts such as yours. This group includes a platoon of Bradleys plus support elements. Throughout the campaign, this unit, which is a core unit for the US side, will arrive partway through each mission and attack you, often from behind. This puts you in situations where you have to either rush through and accomplish your objective, or setup a blocking force/rearguard. Because this unit is a Core element, its possible to blunt or neutralize it- which makes subsequent missions easier. As the campaign progresses you gain other assets- rescue a militia leader and get Un-con supporters, raid an ammo dump full of captured Syrian weaponry to gain MGs and RPGs, and assault a prison to rescue fellow Syrian regulars. Each of these missions enables further Core forces to support your efforts. Interspersed with these missions are Convoy attacks, town invasions, escape and evasion, etc etc. Or this was the theory, anyway. In practice it was really difficult to gauge how large a core force to give to the Red player. Too many and the campaign became too easy, too few and a early bad mission could make the campaign unplayable. I envisioned a campaign where your initial Special Forces company gets whittled down to only a few veteran survivors who are supported by rag tag assets from many different units. The end campaign would have your mixed force destroy the US Cavalry group, and force the US side to commit a large number of troops to secure the rear area you have made so dangerous. The last scenario would be some kind of battle of the Alamo against a combined arms US assault- maybe inside a built up urban area? Anyway, its on the shelf somewhere, maybe one day? Grad school and other games have short circuited this campaign, for the time being

If you enter the cell you are targeting (as often happens when attacking a trench or house) your guys will begin to shoot every which way once the AI recognizes them as being in the targeted cell. Or that has been my observation, anyway...

I've come to prefer keeping everyone together and using QUICK or ASSAULT before any enemy contact has been made. Assault commands make it much easier to seamlessly cover your advance, and seem to improve line of sight. I tend to assault directly from my occupied building into my next target building, with no waypoints in between. In MOUT the buidlings are typically close enough that the assault team moves all the way into the next building before the back half of the team leaves their covering spots. This is preferable to having your guys stop in the open and leapfrog past each other. Once I get into a fight splitting teams is the first order of business. Elements that are engaged hold their ground, while the unengaged portions of my squads maneuver for a better angle/grenade range. I try to keep every fireteam/squad/weapons team/HQ element in a separate floor or building. Crowding just invites RPGs. Similarly, I keep the majority of my forces on street level, with only arty spotters and heavy weapons moving upstairs. I keep everyone off floors with balconies or open walls, and only use roofs when I have a high roof wall and no taller buildings nearby. These tactics limit my LOS, but improve my survivability. These tactics work well... the trick is patience and consistent attention to detail when planning your move orders.

I loved this mission- Its fun not to know where the enemy will be, and to take your time advancing carefully. I ended up pushing up along the left side (seemed easier at the time) and then hooking one of my squads across the far edge of the map to secure the objectives. I was worried about fighting in that city, and it looks like with good reason! Poor corporal Mowstakis Make sure you deploy those guys inside the buildings for the next one, and not on the roofs or outside! :eek:

Wow! Great thread. I am very much enjoying watching this battle unfold. As has been pointed out- your screenshots add a lot of character to this AAR! Well done, sir, well done indeed :cool: I'm gonna agree with Lethaface- don't abandon your attack just yet! Did Left Platoon die for nothing?!? You are already halfway across the open ground, get that infantry into Hillfarm and hide them there, soldier! From your description (I wish I had the map file to look at) it looks like there may be a defilade directly along that road. How much taller is the hilltop than the buildings of HILLFARM? What do you think of his positioning... is there an opening right in the middle that may not be well guarded? Here is a graphic to diagram what I am envisioning: The key question is: Has there been no fire in that middle area because he can't see it? Or because you haven't had anything there to shoot at? If you think the former, get some smoke down and get in there. He is asking for a knife-range fight, so give it to him. You already showed that you can dish it out well at close range with just infantry on the hilltop- do the same here and bring your tanks into play! You described the hilltop fight like a close range paintball fight w/ ak47s... The key in those fights is all about finessing your orders. When to Hunt, Assault, Quick Move, Target Fire, etc... its a bit of a tricky art. I'm sure you can manage it though. Even if not, it should make some great screenshots! Anyway, cool battle. Thanks very much for taking the time. I look forward to the next installment. I think you are doing well so far... the only mistake I saw was trying to move that platoon in the South while under mortar fire. I had a feeling they would get air-bursted Better to let them just hug the ground and pray their tree protects them, in my opinion. Cheers.

In regards to Operation Pooh... Let your infantry do the legwork! You have alot of well-armed infantry for this mission, use them to your advantage. You also have a massive advantage early on before the sun comes up. Your infantry (and vehicles) can use their night vision to neutralize most Syrian units before they can return fire. Even with a fairly cautious advance you should be able to get your recon elements into the main urban areas by the time the sun is up. Once the sun is up the more open "left" side of the map becomes a deathtrap... also, I don't think its too big a spoiler to mention that the left side seems to be where a lot of the Syrian artillery is aimed. The "right" side of the map should be your main axis of advance. Your IFVs can bring your infantry up to your forward recon positions... keep in mind that a route that was "safe" in the dark for the recon may not be safe in the daylight for your follow-up infantry! Once your infantry is into the urban areas it becomes standard leapfrog suppression/assault tactics with IFVs in support as described in the "Assaulting Fierce and Agile" thread. Keep your javelin teams and tanks as far back as you can... use the tanks to pop out and pound buildings from extreme range. If the situation seems too risky for a tank use your Javelins. There are several fairly tall buildings near your side of the map that are great Javelin stations. So, to summarize, the infantry comprise your main effort, using standard tactics for assaulting urban areas. You have a fair ammount of artillery and air support and a long time limit. If your infantry advance runs into a thorny problem have them sit tight and call in the big guns (artillery or tanks/javelins from maximum range). As was mentioned by another poster- the helicopters are great at spotting BMPs on their own. Give them large area fire targets and let them go to town. As for the ATGMs... hit all suspect buildings with tank rounds/grenades/machine guns. Hit them hard, and hit them frequently. Suppress known and potential ATGM positions before making a large move across open ground. There are a lot of places in this map where it simply too risky to move your armor up. Be patient, and let your infantry sort it out. The map comes apart like a puzzle. Each map area your infantry secure opens up access to new firing positions that can be used to support attacks on other map areas. Thats my plan for Pooh, in a nutshell

Note that this technique is drastically different from Chainsaw's "Assaulting Fierce and Agile" Thread in the Strategy and Tactics forum. The strategy in that thread is great- but it works best when you have small distances to sprint across, and know better where the enemy is going to be. His technique relies heavily on suppressive fire on suspected/known enemy positions. Basically it is ideal for urban fights. "Assaulting Fierce and Agile" is perfect for a scenario like mission 2 from the US Army Shock Force campaign- the one where you assault the airstrip and the special forces HQ. You have a large enough force and enough ammo that it is possible to literally suppress every building that could potentially be a threat to your assaulting units. Each house you clear becomes a new place from which to suppress new threats. Completing that mission is very much like picking apart a thorny puzzle. Painless, if you do it properly. Anyway, what I trying to get across in my ramblings is that the "assaulting fierce and agile" tactic used in the 2nd mission of the US Army campaign is one end of the spectrum and Mission 2 from the British campaign is the opposite end of the spectrum. Most other missions fall somewhere in between the two extremes, or will utilize both techniques (like Operation Pooh from the Marine campaign).

The mission you mentioned- 2nd in the British campaign, is a perfect example of this problem. Little to no cover and a long distance to cross. Actually there are some slight depressions along the edges of the map that you can use, but the scenario designer thoughtfully positioned heavy weapons to cover these routes Anyway, my method for crossing a big open space like this (marine mission 2 is a similar type of scenario): -Get as many of your vehicles into hull down position as far away as possible from the enemy. Some Syrian AT weapons are pretty poor at long range, but others are quite nasty. A larger distance will improve your survivability somewhat. -hull down is important, but make sure they can see the target area you want to assault! Once you spot an enemy you will want to pour fire into them. Best to make sure your vehicles are positioned properly beforehand (this can be tricky) -Dismount your infantry and advance; I would use a "quick" command here. How you advance is up to you. Typically I will advance with the squads in line, 50ish meters apart with the HQ elements 50ish meters back. MGs usually end up on the platoon flanks, and AT weapons hang back with the HQ. -Make sure you get your artillery going ASAP on suspected positions. This is dependent on the wait time for your arty missions. The British can call in missions fairly quickly with the right units, which can be a big advantage. Ideally you want to be hitting suspected enemy targets before your infantry gets close to them. -If (when) your infantry takes fire, I would switch them to an "assault" command, and continue the advance. Now the plan will start to unravel, and you have to adapt on the fly. Should all squads switch to "assault", or should some stay on "quick"? Should some squads go "fast" to a protective or advantageous position? Should the machine guns stop and set up, or advance with the platoon? When is smoke called for? -Whatever you decide to do with your infantry, your overwatching units should be pouring fire on. If you don't see the little dead Syrian pixeltroopen, you don't know that you have killed them yet. This is particularly problematic for targeting trenches. Its hard to know when you have actually scored a kill. Force fire with your units, and if there are a lot of targets be sure to switch between them manually. Your "target" order causes a lot more shooting than the AI would typically do on its own. This creates for better suppression but burns through ammo faster as well. Be particularly careful using "target" with your tanks, as you may use up all your shells on infantry, and have nothing left for enemy tanks! In the 2nd British mission I advanced my infantry as described, with their IFVs ~150 meters behind. This kept them close enough to provide good supportive fire. My more distant overwatch units focused on known enemy areas, while these closer IFVs provided rapid-response overwatch for emerging targets that might not be visible to the distant overwatchers. Also, when casualties occured these IFVs could race forward and drop smoke, allowing the squad to handle the casualty with some additional safety. Finally, having the IFVs close allowed for on the fly resupply of MG ammo, grenades, and mortar rounds. At the same time, keeping the IFVs back ~150 meters allowed the infantry to (hopefully) spot and eliminate Syrian RPGs before they could be a threat.

In my experience infantry seems have a rudimentary ability to look around corners. As Combatintman pointed out- the waypoint system leaves a bit to be desired. What I have found to work is this: Tell your men to move right to the corner and issue a "face" command in the direction you want to cover. Often times the waypoint will appear to be in the middle of the street, but with the "face" command your guys should line up such they have protection against fire coming from the "Faced" direction. It looks something like this, where X is the waypoint and \ is the face command: .....l .....l building .\...l_____ ..X......... and then your guys should line up like this: .....l .....l building ....\l_____ .....OOOO... and the guy on the corner will be able to shoot around the corner, although he doesn't seem to take cover very effectively. Sometimes, however, your guys will run right to the waypoint and then adjust to the face command, and run back behind the building. This seems to depend on a lot of "soft" factors like exact map design, incoming fire, and experience (?). In almost all situations a much better way to cover a corner is from a position further back, like so: .....l .....l building .....l_______ ........... .....\.... ......OOOO or: .....l .....l building .....l_______ ........... .....\_______ .....l OOOO .....l .....l

FMB's Tip of the Spear campaign features Marine Humvees with TOW missles. These guys can dismount and see very well- similar to the javelin teams.

I've been toying on and off with a Red vs Blue campaign since I first bought this game and saw that such a campaign was lacking. I haven't finished it yet, and I don't know when I ever will but, if I do, I'll be sure to let you all know!

How do you get sandbagged trenches? :eek:

Oh, cool, well good to know! I shall send those brave pixeltroopen to capture that ridge, regardless of the cost! I was thinking there would be a mission where the Army company links up with the Syrians for a combined assault, but this will do just fine. Cheers!

And now on mission 9: SPOILERS AGAIN This mission is an absolute beast, but I think I just have to suck it up and resign myself to taking lots of casualties. This is hard for me, even though I seem to get a new Syrian company to play with every other level First of all, so many bunkers! They don't seem to be much of a threat initially- You start for the most part hidden or out of range of them. However, you spot them all at once, and know you will have to deal with them eventually. The bigger threat is the snipers. Right from the get-go you are under fire from multiple sniper squads, and its difficult to take them down. My Syrian platoon HQs have a sniper of their own, but it seems like he is always the first casualty. Often I will move an HQ squad into position to shoot at the snipers, and watch as the other 6 guys stick their faces in the dirt while the sniper tries to engage (which makes sense) but then the sniper is the only target available for the enemy sniper, and often my sniper seems to lose this battle. Its very Saving-Private-Ryan-esque. So during my first attempt on this mission I thought I would rush down the hillside and close distance on those enemy snipers so that more of my force could engage them effectively. I was expecting troops on the reverse slopes of the other ridge, but I was admittedly surprised by the platoon (or two?) that is strung out along the reverse slope of your starting ridge. Between clearing out those snipers and that reverse slope surprise I had quite a few casualties by the time I had even moved into position to assault the main objective. I tried to crest both ridges simultaneously and engage the bunkers with multiple squads but was repulsed badly. I "knew" there would be enemy on that reverse slope, but I didn't expect them so high up. There are a lot of cliff areas on the hills you build (they look cool by the way) but I've learned that putting troops in the trees above a cliff is pretty much a death sentence. Its like a neon-sign for the CMSF targeting AI. And there are lots of cliffs on the top of that ridge... it led to a bad situation where my troops crested the ridge, mostly slow crawling, so they were pretty tired, took fire from the bunkers, the enemy platoons on the far slope with the bunkers, AND the enemy on the reverse slopes- they took alot of casualties and many of my squads broke and ran, leaving the casualties in a spot where it would be hard to recover them. I got frustrated at this point and quit. I had only lost ~15% of my force, but this felt like a lot to me for little gain, and I needed a break. So I've come to terms with my defeat, and I'll be going back for a second attempt soon. I already know the scenario now, so I'm going to be doing a little "cheating" this time around- I'm going to do an opening bombardment with everything I've got. I'm designating the air support to bunker duty- this is a big job and I expect they will be at it for quite awhile, or until they run out of ammo. The artillery is going to area fire on the reverse slopes of that middle ridge. I'm using area fire because I don't quite know where I am aiming. I would prefer to use linear fire and march it down the ridge and up the other side, but CMSF doesn't provide for that option easily. I feel okay about this pre-bombardment. I'm gonna call it "preparatory fire on known enemy positions" and not feel like a cheater. I am going to do one other bit of cheating though- I don't know if you meant to do this or not, but the special forces HQ elements start in the deployment zone with the rest of the troops. I'm gonna move one of these elements up where they can see and use them to call in the fire support. The quicker response time is pretty vital I think, particularly for the very long call-up times on the artillery. Anyway, long post, I like the mission a lot, its a good thorny problem. I'm going to try and fishhook around the middle ridges rather than going over the top this time. I really have no complaints with this scenario, other than it being quite challenging. I don't mind taking casualties but I guess I'm worried because I don't know how much I will need this company later in the campaign, and I'm afraid this mission might leave the company pretty much combat ineffective. Kudos on a great campaign!