flamingknives Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 It should be possible to run a campaign based on sections of a single map to recreate Operations. AIUI the problem was the calculations of where the front line ended up between the battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I would use phase lines or areas to occupy as a winning condition. If the scenario is a victory, the next map used has its setup area extended to these objectives, if it was a defeat, the next map would be one with its setup area drawn further back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I'm curious if there are technical / programming reasons (ie memory etc) why there should be a time limit set, other than the game play issues and intended scope. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Normal Dude: It doesn't look like it. birdstrike: That was the sort of thing I had in mind, but how to balance the conditions for the setup in detail would be tricky. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I've not kept up with this thread and haven't had time to read more than the tail end. From a technical standpoint there's no problem letting a game go on forever since the resources the game needs are loaded at the beginning and nothing new is stored for very long before being purged or replaced. The problems with long scenario times has to do with gameplay only. As some have pointed out, AI scripts, victory conditions, balance of forces, resupply, reinforcements, and all kinds of other issues crop up more and more as the time is extended. CM has always been, and will always be, focused on fairly short engagements. Therefore, we don't see ourselves spending significant time on allowing games to keep on going and going. That's not to say that there won't be some new options added as we go along, just saying that the coding/development/testing time for overcome some issues just isn't in the cards. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I'm somehow reminded of the sizes of food portions served in American chain restaurants. The American public does seem have a preferance for 'more' over 'better'. Or to use an old line about tank production attributed to no less than Stalin, "Quantity has a quality all its own". And lets not forget those (wildly inaccurate) motocycle speedometers with numbers up to 200 mph. And the volume setting of 'eleven' on the sound system in Spinal Tap. So you might say there is a precident to providing the option for unplayably long battle times, because of the commonly held impression that the longest possible battles implies the best battles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 What about a "play on?" dialog box instead of forcing an endscreen? It's what TacOps does and it works pretty well. Supply or not, AI on the offensive or not, it will allow you to finish that 3-more-turns move that you started 2 turns ago to see how it turns out. See how it turns out - isn't that what wargaming is about to a major part? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFightingSeabee Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I don't know about all that. I don't want longer, bigger battles, I just don't want to be cut off when I need another half hour to assault a town. If I've been spending so much time perfectly moving my troops without any casualties and they're in the midst of a final assualt, I don't want to be cut off. No one is asking for ALL scenarios to be unlimited, the option to keep playing would be nice to have. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 What about a "play on?" dialog box instead of forcing an endscreen? Ah, a man after my own heart - like a forced 'variable time' button. One click adds 10 more minutes. Repeat until satisfied. I've got eight million things on on my "hope they do this for WWII" list and that idea is right up near the top. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I've not kept up with this thread and haven't had time to read more than the tail end. From a technical standpoint there's no problem letting a game go on forever since the resources the game needs are loaded at the beginning and nothing new is stored for very long before being purged or replaced. The problems with long scenario times has to do with gameplay only. As some have pointed out, AI scripts, victory conditions, balance of forces, resupply, reinforcements, and all kinds of other issues crop up more and more as the time is extended. CM has always been, and will always be, focused on fairly short engagements. Therefore, we don't see ourselves spending significant time on allowing games to keep on going and going. That's not to say that there won't be some new options added as we go along, just saying that the coding/development/testing time for overcome some issues just isn't in the cards. Steve Any chance of commenting on lifting the time limit in the editor? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adio Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 Hey Gents Nice discussion in here I do agree with the Redwolf and FightingSeabee I don't know about all that. I don't want longer, bigger battles, I just don't want to be cut off when I need another half hour to assault a town. If I've been spending so much time perfectly moving my troops without any casualties and they're in the midst of a final assualt, I don't want to be cut off. No one is asking for ALL scenarios to be unlimited, the option to keep playing would be nice to have. Also with Dima In real life the tasks in typical CM missions we do take 5 times as much to ensure that unnecessary casualties are avoided. Noone is expecting you to capture a town in 1 hour It would be very great, when its possible to keep playing, altough the battle is over. And it would not change the result! Or another option could be: After finishing all missions and the campaign, you will get a "turn time off" selector, just for a prize. But my major problem is, that time is basically to short. Just havin` around 30 minutes more time in the most missions... would be nice. Time is so rare, ingame you just give orders and orders... you can`t really enjoy the gameplay, the graphics and the movement+voices by the troops. But if you gonna see all these "small extras" you can see that Battlefront made such a great job and that they really worked with heart and mind! (compared to some other company`s who do just a quick job for money) (Sorry for my bad English) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdogg Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I don't know about all that. I don't want longer, bigger battles, I just don't want to be cut off when I need another half hour to assault a town. If I've been spending so much time perfectly moving my troops without any casualties and they're in the midst of a final assualt, I don't want to be cut off. No one is asking for ALL scenarios to be unlimited, the option to keep playing would be nice to have. I can't agree more, I've had this problem all the way back to cmbb. I can't tell you how many times I wish I had more time for an assault. Personally I think time limits are unrealistic. You think a company commander has a stop watch counting down during an attack? Hell no, the mission is over when accomplished or failed, a time limit is trivial in that sense. Option for for continuing the senario past the limit has to be allowed, I think there is enough interest in this thread for BFC to want to make this happen. I can't tell you how many senarios I'm going to go back and play if this is implemented. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Memory is very rusty today... didn't CMx1 have a dialog that allowed you to keep on playing but with frozen victory conditions? Whatever the case is, I personally don't have a problem with it. But I do have a problem if the victory conditions aren't frozen. There are too many things that start to go wrong after the anticipated timeframe the scenario designer set up for that battle. Having said that, I can think of a way where everybody would be happy. A dialog that allows continued play with or without victory conditions changing from that point on. The determination about victory conditions would be determined by a setting in the Editor designating which side, if any, is allowed to extend victory conditions. That way the designer could say "if Side X achieves its victory conditions, it's game over. Side Y can continue to play, but the Victory will remain as is because what's done is done". That sort of thing. I've made a note of it. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Pv- Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I'm for Steve's suggestion. I suspect 90+ percent of the time, I'll try to live within the design time in order to capture the intent of the scenario, but if both myself and the enemy still has gusto and I'm having fun, I would like the option of playing on for a while (regardless of whether the AI is "having fun.") -Pv- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 I was just mentioning to someone earlier that when it comes to playing CM I'm a coward. I imagine every intersection is mined and every hill hides a Kornet. That slows down my pace playing the game considerably. So I'm often struggling in the game's last 5 minutes to make up time. Since the majority of built scenarios seem to be Blue assault against (usually) static defenses adding extra time shouldn't really hurt the designer's intent. Adding another half hour to a ME battle or is another matter entirely. Attacking units do not usually come to rest a game's end in the most defensible positons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 I was just mentioning to someone earlier that when it comes to playing CM I'm a coward. The proper term is - commander who values his men. In other words "not a butcher". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General_solomon Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Memory is very rusty today... didn't CMx1 have a dialog that allowed you to keep on playing but with frozen victory conditions? Whatever the case is, I personally don't have a problem with it. But I do have a problem if the victory conditions aren't frozen. There are too many things that start to go wrong after the anticipated timeframe the scenario designer set up for that battle. Having said that, I can think of a way where everybody would be happy. A dialog that allows continued play with or without victory conditions changing from that point on. The determination about victory conditions would be determined by a setting in the Editor designating which side, if any, is allowed to extend victory conditions. That way the designer could say "if Side X achieves its victory conditions, it's game over. Side Y can continue to play, but the Victory will remain as is because what's done is done". That sort of thing. I've made a note of it. Steve steve,, you have made my weekend. i dont want unlimited time just an option to keep going. i like to plan my moves and like to it slowly to try to bring every man home. i like to play battles like each one of my digital soldiers mattered if they stayed alive. any option to give us more time would be appreciated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Agree, that's fair enough with me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 I see the time limit as the overall commander pulling the plug on the operation. Even if another 20mins is all that's needed to breach the perimeter our missions do not happen in a vacuum. Something else might have cropped up that needs immediate attention and effects what's happening to our patrol directly. Whilst unlimited time has it's good points the commanding officer has to at some point make the call to hold or abort. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Yes, that's the way I see it as well Meach. And very often there is a reason to do something by x time instead of "hey, whenever you get around to it, that's cool with me" sort of attitude. This is why CM has such a difficult time simulating even a small village battle or tank battle. In real life there's only so long the engagement lasts before something changes that requires one side or the other to disengage, even if temporarily. That being said, there are also cases where the scenario clock is arbitrarily unforgiving. In real life if a commander said "operation cancelled!" and the commander said "sir, we're 20m from the objective and nobody is apparently alive to shoot at us" the commander would tend to let it play out a bit longer. Either that or the officer in charge of the actual units would "forget" to stop the advance for a couple of minutes Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Steve, How about more flexibility in scenario length for the editor? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Steve, Seems like a "request a few minutes more" toggle could be the answer. A "denied" answer could also be programmed in to represent the more bull-headed CO's which ofc would be a random along with several time slices available... say 10mins, 20mins, 30mins and denied. So the player just don't know what he's gonna get but he is gonna get something rather than just the clock running out and game over. Over and above that a player could have a "blind eye" option where you can literally demand an extra 5mins while the radio "plays up" and transmissions are garbled. So here is how it works in my mind.... 30m from objective, call comes thru to wind it up. Sandstorm approaching. Bugger. LT calls in and asks for more time. CO states clearly, roll it up and head back. (This is the clock running out ingame and the player hitting the "request more time" and getting a denied result roll. LT thinks, to hell with this we will only get caught up in the storm, might as well get into cover of the objective. (Player hits "radio static" button) and gets 5 more mins. Moves his troops into the objective. Sorry if it's clear as mud but this is how I could see both sides getting something out of a little give and take. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InFireBaptize Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 can i increase time limit or disable all together! the time limit is killing the game, makes me think of code masters :-( 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Don't forget, you're not just playing against the AI, you're also playing against the scenario designer. A good scenario designer can easily anticipate the player's moves up to 3/4 hour of play, can anticipate a player's moves wth some chance of getting it right up to maybe 2 1/4 hours. Beyond that the clock becomes the scenario designer's enemy. Are you moving your men forward or sitting and waiting for 3 hours to pass? The time limit compels the player to do something. If the time's entirly open ended how can the designer and plan contingencies for anything at all? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InFireBaptize Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Don't forget, you're not just playing against the AI, you're also playing against the scenario designer. A good scenario designer can easily anticipate the player's moves up to 3/4 hour of play, can anticipate a player's moves wth some chance of getting it right up to maybe 2 1/4 hours. Beyond that the clock become the scenario designer's enemy. Are you moving your men forward or sitting and waiting waiting for 3 hours to pass? heime limit compels the player to do something. If the time's entirly open ended how can the designer and plan contingencies for anything at all? Thanks MikeyD, you seem to be there when i need yea so it's hard coded, great!! is there anything not hard coded in this game, sheesh? I mean everyday i try to like this game but then i discover something i don't like :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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