Rocky Balboa Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 I always give mounted troops the order to dismount and forget to pick up the Javelin. Am I the only one that has this problem? Shouldnt it be SOP to for a squad to always take at least one javalin round unless ordered not to? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 The Javelin adds a lot of weight to your troops' load and tires them out faster. If you are dismounting your troops to clear rooms then it doesn't make any sense to give them that weight to carry around. Grabbing it isn't SOP in real life. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 The Javelin adds a lot of weight to your troops' load and tires them out faster. If you are dismounting your troops to clear rooms then it doesn't make any sense to give them that weight to carry around. Grabbing it isn't SOP in real life. Roger that .... I just have a real bad habit of dismounting ( especially when playing RT) and forgetting to bring along a Jav. Sometimes I dont remember until my Squad sees a HVT. Trust me, you can hear oaths that would make Gunny Huntarr blush when this happens.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atago Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 I do it too. I can't remember the number of times I've had the squad run back to the vehicle to get the launcher & missiles. As for city fighting, I do still occasionally find them useful when I can pop one at a building that has bad guys in it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 What I've been doing lately is fanning out my troops and on initial sighting of armor I try to get my Strykers up to the best-positioned troops. That might mean 2-3 Stryker vehicles ferrying all their Javelin missiles to where they'll do the most good. Whenever I grab Javelin early I always have the worst luck. THAT's the team thats going to get mortared or walk past an IED or have a MG open up on them. And who's the first man to fall? You guessed it, the Javelin guy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 Hi All, I usually arm one or 2 sqauds with javelins before I dismount them. At that time I break them off as an AT team. I keep them towards the rear in a safe area until they are needed. Hopefully they move up safely........ Regards John 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 Yep I was a bullet stopper in the 80's and back then our comparable (but by no means equivalent) medium ATGM was Dragon. It was also heavy but in training we always dismounted with it. I know everything is geared toward MOUT today so I guess I can understand why you wouldn't bring it along. Of course back then we also had to hump a 60 which was also a b$%^ breaker. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabal23 Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 Is that a bug that the Javelin guy always takes it first? I notice it too. I wish you could pick up the wounded soldiers Javelin after getting shot stepping out of the vehix. Nothing like having all your javelines sitting there on the ground staring at you, screaming "you can't pick me up!!!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uedel Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 What would make me happy if i could unmount the Javelin Launcher and Rockets also again in a Vehicle. Sometimes i grab one bcause i think i need one and then i am stuck with it the whole mission long....... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yskonyn Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 LOL! Yeah I have that as well, but then again, when I do think of grabbing them, MikeyD's ruleset seems to kick in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 Is that a bug that the Javelin guy always takes it first? I notice it too. I wish you could pick up the wounded soldiers Javelin after getting shot stepping out of the vehix. Nothing like having all your javelines sitting there on the ground staring at you, screaming "you can't pick me up!!!" Uhm... that's what the buddy ais system is there for. Park a unit close by and they'll most likely pick up any weapons they fancy. As to the likelihood of Javelin crew getting shot first, this has been mentioned before. I strongly suspect it's people taking more note of Javelin crew losses then ordinary losses. but I'll keep an eye out for it. Truth is, I don't lose a lot of Javelin operators. I forgo the specialist bonus and give Javelins to my MMG crews and the HQs. The MMGs should be in some form of overwatch position at the back with reasonable LOS. The HQs with Javelins supply AT firepower up front but since they are operating behind their squads they run fewer risks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabal23 Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 Call me crazy, but it seems a unit w/ a Javelin, the Javelin operator always goes down first. Try entering a building and you will see what I mean. Almost always when clearing building Jav operator goes down. Good luck getting that buddy to pick up the Jav in a building. Hard enough to get them to perform buddy aid in a building, or on a roof. Dunno why that is. Maybe I am crazy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 Call me crazy, but it seems a unit w/ a Javelin, the Javelin operator always goes down first. Try entering a building and you will see what I mean. Almost always when clearing building Jav operator goes down. Good luck getting that buddy to pick up the Jav in a building. Hard enough to get them to perform buddy aid in a building, or on a roof. Dunno why that is. Maybe I am crazy. Well I cant really speak from personal experience on this one since my squads leave their JAV in the bus. But I have noticed similar behavior with other units like FO, FIST and HQ's. It's my guess that the AI fudges a little when it comes to unit recognition and then applies a value to each spotted target. The higher value targets are shot at first which results in a FO, FIST, HQ getting hit first. I also think this AI target selection goes all the way down to the boot level which means if you have a 9 man squad and one guy is carrying the JAV then he will be more than likely be a primary target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 "Is that a bug that the Javelin guy always takes it first?" Look t it from the other perspective. An RPG team is spotted sneaking up on you. Who yah gonna aim for, the support guy? I wouldn't call it the AI fudging things but making logical choices. What's that line from the movie "Enemy at the gates"? The sniper invariably preferred to shoot an officer in preference to a mere footsoldier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slug88 Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 Oh no, not this again... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 I remember this coming up here before, but I can't quite remember for sure if the TacAI favors "high value targets" or not. My recollection is that this does not happen, however I need to check with Charles to be sure. Regardless, the TacAI for both sides is the same. If one side is looking for the top target to aim at, both sides are. Keep in mind that probability has a lot to do with things. If you have a FO team with 2 men in it, well... 50/50 chance that the FO is going to get hit. If you have a 9 man Squad with a Javelin, it is in Team A which is usually the first team to take fire. That means a 1 in 5 chance the Javelin guy is going to go down, 1 in 5 that the Squad Leader will fall, 1 in 5 that the SAW will fall, 1 in 5 that the Team Leader will get it, and 1 in 5 that the Grenadier will get hit. No matter which one gets hit, it's a serious loss because there is no redundancy in US Army Squads or specialty Teams. Therefore, one notices pretty much all the casualties the unit takes. Human brains being what they are, the gray goo tries to see patterns of cause/effect. Sometimes those patterns exist, other times they do not. As far as I know this is a case where it's simple probability without anything extra thrown in. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Hmmm, In ASSAULT, it seems to me that the Javelin operator gets hit the most. I have not conducted any testing, rigorous or otherwise, so take this as an impression only. The Javelin operator, upon entering a building, is the first man in. That's never good for the actuary tables. In addition, the doddering idiot that he is, he is NOT carrying an M4, but the Javelin launcher. Maybe he thinks the sight of a big honkin' missile launcher will shock and awe anyone in the room. But once the shooting starts, he is at a disadvantage. So, my impression: as a team leader, he enters first. He also enters with the wrong weapon. Result: more Javelin operator casualties. (Note that once the close quarters battle commences, the Javelin operator frequently - not always - changes over to a more appropriate sidearm. I don't know if the internal coding puts the Javeline operator at a disadvantage or if it instantaneously credits him with a different weapon.) Does that fit with what others see? Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVulture Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Assault into buildings specifically, or in general? And are we talking MOUT units or normal stryker ones here? The AT guy isn't a team leader in a regular squad. I did some testing for a normal stryker squad using 'quick' to move over open ground from one trench to another while getting shot at by a Syrian rifle squad. There was no discernable preference for anyone one person getting hit more than anyone else. I did tests with and without javelins being carried, and it again made no difference to the AT guys survivability. The AT guy was in fact hit less than anyone else in the squad. The guy who got hit most often was the squad marksman, but it wasn't by a significant amount. Whether there is some additional effect like the guy humping the javelin around being more likely to be spotted in marginal conditions and draw fire I don't know. Not tested building entering, but it wouldn't surprise me if certain squad members were more likely than other to be first through the door and come off worst. (See what I am reduced to doing in my lunch hour while waiting for Marines to be released... Have pity, Battlefront) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 TheVulture, Thanks for running a few trials. I meant ASSAULT into buildings. To refute a post upstream, it is rare that after giving buddy aid that my men do NOT end up with a spare Javelin or two. I would enjoy the ability to put the CLU and missiles back into a vehicle. As well, my previously stated desire to put a HOLD on firing special equipment would complete my Javelin/AT4 tweaks. Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVulture Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 TheVulture, Thanks for running a few trials. I meant ASSAULT into buildings. Well if I haven't got hold of the Marines module by tomorrow lunchtime, I'll have something to occupy me for another hour of testing 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missinginreality Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I believe this was all tested a few months ago, quite exhaustively by memory and it was a long thread, still be about somewhere.From memory the tests seemed to demonstrate that there was no statistically greater chance of specialists or leaders getting knocked out before others. I think 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 missinginreality is right, the discussion was about the squad leader always being the first man down. and testing proved there was no special aim for the squadleader. it was just that the silly bastard runs first of the squad wich ment he was the first target entering the house... same with AT I guess, ive noticed how forward in the squad they run (think its like 3rd man or something when he should be last man in) wich results in that hes among the first guys taken down, and hes javelin on the should doesnt help him in a room clearing /Chainsaw 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 By default the Javelin gunner is not a Team Leader. He is #5 man in Team A of a Rifle Squad. Second, as was covered in another thread already, there is no time penalty to switch weapons. So if the guy goes in with a Javelin there is absolutely no negative ramifications of that. The reason why we don't assess time penalties for switching weapons is that would require a pretty damned good set of TacAI instructions to predict, ahead of time, which weapon a soldier needs at any given specific moment. That's a lot of coding time for something that 95% of the time doesn't make a difference (i.e. the TacAI would have had plenty of time to switch weapons before needing the right one). Better to have the right weapon used for the right situation instead of having situations like c3k mentioned crop up and actually mean the soldier gets killed because he "stupidly" has the wrong weapon at the ready. As was mentioned in the previous thread on probability, LOS/LOF in CM:SF means that the old CMx1 style "score a hit, choose who takes it" system doesn't exist in CM:SF. If you are seeing your Team Leaders taking hits more than anybody else (which I think was disproven) then it is simply because your TLs tend to be more exposed than others. Kinda like in WWII how 1LTs had about a 300% casualty rate, which was far higher than any other officer. Why? Because they were more likely to get shot at and less likely to know what they were doing, not because German weapons were unrealistically weighted towards killing 1LTs Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 Wow was this thread ever Ninja'd ...... Of course I did my part in getting things off track ...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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