Why Arabs Lose Wars--Important magazine article originally in MEQ

[Lethaface]

By the way, 'radioactive wasteland' is perhaps a bit over the top....

The original article is indeed not really an objective article, to say the least.

[ironmonkey6]

JonS, while I dont understand your use of the word 'Nimrod' (hunter?) or Jimmy page, I perhaps was a little vigilante on you. However, it struck me that claims about the impact of use of DU rounds were served of rather ironically by your post (depleted?). That doens't show a lot of respect to the ones suffering by DU use post-effects.

While U is a toxic heavy metal, it is also low radioactive. This radio activity (alpha radiation) cant go through skin, but when DU particles infest your body, the prolonged exposure to this radiation does have certain effects apart from the sheer chemical toxicity.

Depleted uranium has a very long radioactive half-life of 4.5 billion years. In the event of internal contamination it can damage cells and tissues by it's prolonged presence in the body and by the intense radiation of alpha particles.

Each alpha particle of depleted uranium gives approximately 4.2 MeV (million electron volts). Only 6 to 10 eV (electron volts) are sufficient for DNA or other large molecules to break, which causes damage that may not be undone by cellular repair mechanisms.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200202/ai_n9077795

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12121782?dopt=Abstract

And a lil story with some pictures, for the more visual focussed:

http://www.news-journalonline.com/special/uranium/

--

And Now GO get your ******* shinebox

I agree with the radiation part. It is known to infest the lungs and othe parts that have tiny bloodvessels, developing tumours.

[JonS]

What is this - Whack-a-Mole Day?

[Lethaface]

Any more info on 'Whack-a-mole-day' would be appreciated

[Flanker15]

DU isn't nearly as bad as something like agent orange was but I can see it does have some pretty serious problems.

All the little particles and fragments left by the shells in the soil can work there way into plants and since it's a heavy metal it will then work its way into livestock and people. We may see health problems caused by DU years from now. Of course right now I'd be more worried about the 1000's of unexploded cluster sub-munitions lying around.

[John Kettler]

Lethaface,

I was deliberately hard hitting because I wanted to get the point across. Here's another way of looking at it: the world's largest uncontrolled research facility for subjecting nonconsenting civilians and military to chronic internal exposure via DU-produced alpha radiation and associated biotoxic effects. Branch facility in Afghanistan, with satellite offices wherever the exposed go.

Flanker15,

It's a big deal right now. Cancer used to be very rare in Iraq prior to the Gulf War. Not any more. Likewise birth deformities. It's gotten so bad that villages celebrate wildly when a normal child is born. There are documentaries available that cover this, for I've seen some.

As for our troops, I haven't got all the numbers sorted out, but take a look at Gulf War I & II disability claims, mortality rate, etc., here. Now, it's not just DU, but that's certainly a major factor. I suspect the real killer is DU + GWS (mycoplasma) + horrendous environmental contaminant exposure (burning oil wells, shattered Iraqi chem and bio warfare stockpiles in GW I) + experimental anthrax vaccine. Troops serving in OIF and aftermath went into a radiological and toxic hot zone and are still there, some on tour three or four. The French in GW I didn't issue the experimental anthrax vaccine (not approved for human use) and did give their troops Doxycycline, a potent antibiotic. No GWS cases! OTOH, am not sure what DU exposure the French had, since I don't know where they fought relative to the U.S. forces.

http://www.libertyforlife.com/military-war/millions_US_troops_dead_disabled.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Okay, that's my patience with the village idiot running out. Kettler, I'm not sure if you are really that stupid and gullible or if this is a trolling exercise but I've had enough of your dishonesty and loopy links. Either way I feel insulted every time I read your garbage.

Time to discoversee if that Ignore feature works.

[jomni]

Going back to the original article. Is it just me or is this article quite obsolete? Arabs are good fighters. They may lose the conventional wars but they are doing quite some damage when the war turns unconventional.

[LongLeftFlank]

Going back to the original article. Is it just me or is this article quite obsolete? Arabs are good fighters. They may lose the conventional wars but they are doing quite some damage when the war turns unconventional.

The root cause identified by the author isn't the warrior spirit of the average fighting man. It's that the institution (army) in which he serves doesn't provide the ordinary jundi strong incentives (or material support) to learn or execute his job well in peacetime, and this translates to inferior performance in war.

In peacetime, the officer caste is more interested in protecting its privileges and image (and at higher ranks, cashing in on its power) than in creating an effective combat force. There are exceptions in units where the senior officers are well motivated and reasonably honest, but they are exceptions. NCOs have little to no authority and are too badly paid and treated to give a s**t. Resources are misappropriated or simply never show up.

These are not problems unique to Arab armies. Any army which is primarily a vehicle for controlling and exploiting its own population and only secondarily for defending the nation against other armies will have these problems.

You could go farther and consider the Victor Davis Hanson thesis ("Carnage and Culture") that Western soldiers and armies are products of a culture that rewards -- or at least does not quash -- initiative. There may be some truth in that, although there are many many counterexamples:

e.g. The fascist Italian army was as corrupt as anything you'd see in Egypt today and the troops performed accordingly.

e.g. The Chinese PLA and Viet Minh/NVA were some of the best motivated fighting forces in history, and their ordinary soldiers showed initiative and creativity at least as great as their Western adversaries.

[John Kettler]

Elmar Bijlsma,

Am not quite sure what you're on about. The initial link certainly wasn't the best, but I fail to see how Gulf War Veterans of America, founded by an Air Force reserve nurse captain who almost died of GWS from simply treating an evacuee and was never in theater herself qualifies as a "loopy link." Michio Kaku is a respected physicist with a pretty high profile in the media.

I didn't write the VA piece, and I'm not sure I understand what all the numbers mean, but I sure grok that death rates 3 x higher than the national average, among people in far better shape than most of their peers, is a big deal.

If you're a student of history, the average GI has been getting screwed by the government going back to 1919 when the then War Department arbitrarily reclassified MIA American POWs captured by the Bolsheviks as dead. The same strategy was followed by the Pentagon regarding our Vietnam MIAs. This is easily demonstrable. See, for example, the Report of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence for POWs and MIAs. And that's without all the various tests run on hapless soldiers without their informed consent. Most of the men shown in those open air nuclear tests are dead of cancer and other radiation exposure related illnesses. Troops were knowingly exposed to the terrible teratogen and mutagen dioxin Agent Orange in Vietnam. The Pentagon not only hid the records but stonewalled the poor sick veterans for years, exactly as it did and is doing on all the various Gulf War maladies. The anthrax vaccine wreaked havoc, as did something I left out: the antinerve agent pill pyridostigmine. And if you think anything's been learned, I refer you to the recent scandals involving injured soldier care at VA hospitals and the failure to inform of known drug side effects re the stop smoking drug Chantix. I personally know someone who was terribly affected by that and wound up having to go cold turkey.

Am sure none of this is cheery, and is doubtless profoundly upsetting, but it is the truth, one firmly supported by history.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Returning for now to the primary topic, I think that the board game Junta is a pretty good depiction of the dynamics depicted in the article, as is the card game Red Empire. Everyone is so busy feathering his own nest that the good of the country is pretty much an afterthought, though in Red Empire, if the players don't at least somewhat mind the store, everyone involved loses when the country collapses.

Knowledge is power, so is hoarded. Power is never to be shared, for this diminishes your authority and face. All other things being equal, it is better to look good than be good. Less work, too! Besides, if you're too good, you automatically become a) an object of resentment and/or an internal security target.

That Arab troops can fight bravely and well, not to mention come up with original military solutions, is shown by the meticulous planning and execution of the Suez Canal crossing, the storming of the Bar Lev line and the shattering of the IDF counterattacks. Things fell apart when the leaders got greedy and overextended their position. The Syrians very nearly won in the Golan, pressing the Israelis to the breaking point before finally starting to crack in the face of enormous casualties inflicted by IDF tankers fighting like men possessed.

In both cases, these were men burning with a deep sense of national and cultural outrage, seeking revenge for repeated humiliations and with something to prove. I believe this overrode, for a time at least, the business as usual mentality. More recently, the Hezbollah, a much less traditional and small Arab force, also tired of being kicked around, meticulously prepared a battlefield of its own choosing against the IDF, prepared its troops and the people for a conflict renewal viewed as inevitable. When the Hezbollah unexpectedly found itself in a full blown shooting war as a result of snatching IDF soldiers and a much bigger than expected Israeli response, it took the best the IDF could throw at it, not only survived it, but gave as good as it got, stood in a way Arab forces haven't stood since the founding of Israel (over a month), and ultimately forced an Israeli withdrawal.

Clearly, the problem isn't with the troops, but with Byzantine politics and a WW II Italian style officer corps as the typical case for Arab national armies. Obviously, Hezbollah is a special case.

Regards,

John Kettler

[luderbamsen]

Going back to the original article. Is it just me or is this article quite obsolete? Arabs are good fighters. They may lose the conventional wars but they are doing quite some damage when the war turns unconventional.

They can certainly be excellent fighters, and the article in fact does equal a Jordanian infantry company to an Israeli one, but once you go higher up the chain of command things begin to fall apart. Irregular and regular Arab forces are two entirely different things. For one thing, a formation like the Lebanese Hizbollah is not burdened by a hierachy whose primary objective is self-preservation. But nor do they have the ability to coordinate large scale operations in the manner of a regular military formation.

Respectfully

krise madsen

[Lethaface]

John Kettler,

While I do consider many of the so called 'complot theories' not to be ruled out to easily (having had some problems myself and some inside info from various sources), it's something else to consider them as a fact. The article about the 'Mini Atomic Bombs' is obviously an article by someone that regards the 'complot theories' as his own bible. Hell, he connects the FED (controlled by Rothschild) scam to [...] and holds it as a reason for the DU scam. etc etc.

Such an article cant be viewed as serious food for any discussion, in my opinion. Even if someone considered it as fully true, I would never bring this article up in any discussion since hit holds no references at all; only wild claims without any background support.

While I do have some knowledge about the Rothschilds, Carlyle, etc myself, it will only confuse any discussion about another topic. Especially if one is not sure if the other participants in the discussion share the same opinion. Concluding, to bring an article like that as a fact based story, will only destroy a discussion instead of making others more open about the subject. It will only fuel the believe that all the opinions of the one posting that article, are based on similar unbacked stories / articles.

That is, in my opinion, what Elmar and others are stressing about. I can't really deny them, altough I might have a different opinion then them on the same subject.

All the best

[John Kettler]

Lethaface et al.,

As I said, it wasn't a great link, and the guy DID get a bunch of stuff wrong. What I really wanted to convey, though, was just how great the scale of the DU contamination problem was/is, that it's not affecting just the Iraqis, but everybody, and that it's an enormous environmental disaster. I think, too, this part of the thread has served to educate and inform people a bit on the nature of DU and it's double punch via toxicity and in contact radiation attacking the cells.

Memo to self: Be extra careful when posting links after being up still from the day before.

Sorry for the confusion! Wish I could go back and substitute a better link, but I can't.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JonS]

Memo to self: Be extra careful when posting links after being up still from the day before.

Sorry for the confusion! Wish I could go back and substitute a better link, but I can't.

BS. Posting useless, inflamatory, fantasy-based links has been your modus operandi for at least the last 8 years. There is not a hope in hell that you will be able, or even try, to change your spots.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

This thread is like an itch you just have to scratch. John, re-read in full the link you posted last.

Reasons why so many U.S. soldiers are dead can be found on the XYZ site along with the reasons why the U.S. government, courts and military is controlled by a group of Lucifer worshiping criminals and bankers who have not only stolen our Nation they have also stolen our homes and businesses and threaten life on earth.

Seriously? You meant to post that? On purpose? :eek::eek:

What ever else an article may contain, that digs a shallow grave and shoots rationality in the back of the head.

[Lethaface]

Hehe, now I simply cant withstand reacting. While such articles as mr. JK posted aren't of real value to any intelligent discussion (no offense ment), there are rather dubious facts about the higher echelons in the USA society. It is a fact that the governmental executional and law making 'bodies' have (very) close ties with (read invest in holdings that invest in) companies that capitalize on those same laws and policies. Look at Carlyle with the Bush Sr. at the top with his son as President, even Colin Powell has been carlyle employed. Haliburton having strong ties with Cheney and Chevron with Condoleeza. I think these are very strong intertwined interests.

They are (for me) also intriguing considering certain projects 'awarded' to those companies or investments made. Look at what business Haliburton has in, for example Iraq, or in which weapon industries Carlyle holds shares. One could consider these descriptions actually only mentioning the 'tip of the iceberg'.

It is a fact that the FED isn't owned by the US goverment. Who does own it is (at best) unsure to me (a consortia of other banks, owned by other banks, owned by (time and money is needed if you want to see for yourself; I didn't)).

It is a fact that every printed dollar bill becomes a debt from the USA to the FED. This debt holds interest. Interest/Dividend gets payed to the shareholders of the FED. These claims are verifiable through public available info that is provided by the Carlyle group and FED itself.

However, those facts indeed do not indicate a group of "Lucifer worshiping criminals and bankers" (LOL), but at the very, very and very least do frown my eyebrows.

Funny NYT article from 1904:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9404E3D7103DE633A25753C2A9629C946597D6CF

What's in a name?

[...]

Ok and now I'll really go back to "Why Arabs Lose Wars [...]". I think the article presents a very logical explanation backup up by the writer having (assumed) experience in the field.

[John Kettler]

Elmar Bijlsma,

Now I see what you were upset about. I wasn't talking about that, in fact, didn't read that far, for my focus was on the new VA report and figures at the top. That said, it wouldn't be at all difficult to produce credible evidence supporting the disturbing scenario outlined, but this isn't the place for that discussion. If interested, we can either start a separate thread, or you can PEM me.

Did JonS say something? Thought not!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Redwolf]

This thread is like an itch you just have to scratch. John, re-read in full the link you posted last.

Seriously? You meant to post that? On purpose?

What ever else an article may contain, that digs a shallow grave and shoots rationality in the back of the head.

Hm, now that one actually sounds perfectly accurate to me

[John Kettler]

Redwolf,

Which part?!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Redwolf]

Oh, John...

[thewood]

Not that there's anything wrong with worshiping Lucifer...

[Cpl Steiner]

John Kettler,

Are you a regular contributor of articles to this magazine?

http://www.atlantisrising.com/index.shtml

I seem to recall seeing your name mentioned in connection with it.

Just wondering.

[Wicky]

Unfortunately he is a proud writer of woo with out of this world AFV recognition skills ...

Atlantis Rising Issue 13

NASA ACCUSED OF SKULLDUGGERY WITH MARS DATA by John Kettler

The (Martian) artifacts he claimed to have found were only a few feet long but were recognizably martial. Gun emplacements and the shattered remnants of a tank seemed apparent to this writer, a former military analyst. One of the vehicles looked very much like a World War II German Panzer I, right down to its peculiar track work. Others seen in the vicinity looked like a World War I rhomboid tank and a U.S. M-48 of 1960s vintage. Whatever these things were, it seems that in later frames they received the full NASA disinformation treatment in which they were made to disappear as apparent alien artifacts.

PlugholeRising

John Kettler,

Are you a regular contributor of articles to this magazine?

http://www.atlantisrising.com/index.shtml

I seem to recall seeing your name mentioned in connection with it.

Just wondering.

[John Kettler]

Cpl Steiner,

I am indeed, as well as the anthologies FORBIDDEN HISTORY (one chapter) and FORBIDDEN SCIENCE (nine chapters). What Wicky's on about is in the article; it references certain images you can see under Pasadena Conference at the Enterprise Mission site. When the images are properly reassembled, what emerges looks like miniature versions (only a few feet long) of the vehicles Wicky's having so much fun with. The items on Mars were presented together with the Enterprise Mission best match from a terrestrial perspective and as a lifelong treadhead, they looked pretty good to me. What they definitely didn't look like were ordinary rocks, and if they were, it would be reasonable to ask why NASA so grossly altered the imagery? See for yourself; don't take either Wicky's or my word for it.

In an effort to get back on track, did you find the original thread article a worthwhile read? Or were you already up to speed on the matter?

Regards,

John Kettler