Honest Review

[medlinke]

I am looking for an honest review of CM:SF. I'm curious about what the patches have added in terms of addressing the earlier problems with the game. I don't often get a chance to play multiplayer so how is the single player experience?

I'm interested in hearing how the game is now. What are the universally accepted shortcomings of the product, and what things make it an outstanding buy.

Sell me. (It shouldn't be too hard at this point!)

And does the 1.07 pretty much paint the 1.08 picture or was 1.08 a significant enough upgrade that it feels/plays better than 1.07?

[Moon]

You should be getting that when the Marines module/v1.10 patch is out next month I would think. It might be hard to get it on these boards otherwise. You'll either get fans or haters (with an agenda?), with very little inbetween

Martin

[SgtMuhammed]

Personally I hate it. Every time I play I find something that needs to be fixed or adjusted.

[medlinke]

hehe...

A beta tester finding problems? Nooooooo

You're right I should go about this differently...

1. Is the game lopsided in favor of the Americans or can the Syrians put up a real challenge?

2. Does the WEGO still work well or do most people play it Real Time? Why do you play it the way you do?

3. What videos would you recommend I watch to get a better feel for the game on Youtube if there are any? I see the AAR videos, but I'm not quite sure what I'm watching to be honest.

4. What was the biggest problem at launch and how has it been addressed (or not) in your opinion?

5. How well does the game support/simulate MOUT gaming? Is it still focused like CM 1x on open terrain or does the system appropriate adjust?

Thanks again.

[stikkypixie]

1. Depends with what you call a good fight. In ambush they can really dish out hurting, but a straight on fight, the Americans definitely have the edge. That's why I prefer red on red or blue on blue sometimes.

2. The only that's different from WEGO in CMSF and CMx1 is that you HAVE to watch the first minute (because that's when the turn is resolved), other that I never had any problems. Things get killed a lot quicker though, so WEGO can be a bit frustrating.

4. Pathing and LOS issues in the initial release. Both have been resolved largely in my opinion. Infantry on (rare) occasion still do unexpected things. Supposedly 1.10 should make them smarter and that's the one thing I'm really looking forward to. Check out that list with improvements and you'll get a general idea of what is lacking.

My biggest gripe is still the lack of feedback, for some reason I sometimes feel lost about what is going on.

Oh yeah, the QB system still sucks. Too little control over the battle parameters.

5. MOUT in CMSF is really bloody. Entering an enemy occupied building is suicide and requires A LOT of suppression fire. Again infantry pathing can be a bit unpredictable at times, because a) sometimes you don't have a clear idea of which paths are available and on occasion some bugs in the way a scenario is made (like forgetting to add doors if I understand correctly).

These issues can be avoided by going slow and not giving clear orders, for me at least. Btw RPGs are really nasty things.

Just try the demo and you'll know for yourself.

[Mord]

I play WEGO exclusively. I play it because I like to relax and re-watch the cool moments a million times and there have been some great ones with the 1:1. It plays almost as good as CMX1. There are a few missing features I hope they'll eventually include, such as Kill List, detailed hits, and editable waypoints but once you get used to it it's not that bad. The replay still doesn't reset craters, which annoys me but it's fairly minor to the fun I have been having. I have seen less and less stupidity on the TAC AI's part over the last two patches which has also really upped the WEGO goodness. If you plot carefully you'll get the movement outcome you want most of the time.

I personally don't believe in lopsided units...it all depends on the scenario maker in my opinion. We have the tools right in the editor to "balance" the game if that is the desired effect. I play both sides and sometimes I want to be challenged, sometimes it's fun to have a turkey shoot, and sometimes I like being the underdog...I can get all of that regardless of the units, by good scenario design. So, for me, it all comes down to my mood.

Biggest problem at launch to me were wacky vehicle path finding, swiss cheese walls, and the crawl of death...all have been much improved. I don't remember seeing any since 1.08.

I've played a few MOUT games in the last month or so and I'll say it's a lot better than it was. A LOT! Looks like the Marines module/ 1.1 patch is gonna take it to a whole nuther level.

Mord.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

1)They US haveve got by far the better gear and it shows. Doesn't mean the Syrians don't stand a chance, but they have a hard time of it. The real equalizer is in the scoring. There is a greater loss tolerance for the Syrians. Doesn't mean playing as Syrians can't be frustrating. Sometimes you think you are catching the US player with his pants down when lethality accuracy and optics will let you down in the face of a withering US reply. The real gold is, IMO, in Red v Red. Death does not immidiately follow upon being sighted by the enemy, which is a nice change.

2)WEGO works just fine, used to play mostly in it, but recently I am playing more in RT. Just so much more flexible and hands on. Just teach yourself not to be shy of pausing. Initially I found RT too overwhelming with all the things going on. With greater use of the pause button and a better key config, I'm doing fine now in RT. Vastly prefer it for it's pacing.

3)No comment. I rather play then watch a video. Sorry all you video makers, I'm sure they are lovely.

4)Gosh, so many things at launch. If I had to pick one it's going to be infantry not being 'smart' enough to deal with the situations it found itself in. That's been very much improved with minor tweaks here and there. Though I think it's also fair to mention universal disappointment with the QB system, which is still very poor.

5)MOUT? A fair bit better then CMx1, I would say. Buildings are now modelled so much better, greatly enhancing the exprience. Downside is greater detail leads to greater expectations. We've gone from 3 man squad visuals representing 10-12 men to people wanting to see troops peek around corners.

House to house fighting it does great. Room to room fighting is not so hot.

[dan/california]

1. Is the game lopsided in favor of the Americans or can the Syrians put up a real challenge? Not in well designed scenarios.

The game, like the real world is very unforgiving, if you try to run your Abrams past a Syrian squad without suppressing first they will cheerfully shoot you in the rear with an RPG and ruin your day. On the other hand, and this is also realistic, if you attempt to frontally assault a couple of Abrams, even with the better part of a company of Syrian armour, the scrap metal dealers will be very grateful.

The scoring system also allows for almost infinite balancing of scenarios.

2. Does the WEGO still work well or do most people play it Real Time? Why do you play it the way you do?

WEGO has improved with every patch, but I still play real time most of the time because the AI will just do silly things occasionally. With further AI improvements in the 1.1 patch WEGO may finally be over the hump.

3. What videos would you recommend I watch to get a better feel for the game on Youtube if there are any? I see the AAR videos, but I'm not quite sure what I'm watching to be honest.

Play the demo, all of the videos assume you have some idea what is happening.

3. What was the biggest problem at launch and how has it been addressed (or not) in your opinion?

The game was extremely buggy at launch. The unit level AI was barely functional at all, among many other problems. It has improved by orders of magnitude. Now, if you give sensible orders and understand how differnt commands interact with each other you will spend most of your time thinking that your pixeltruppen are behaving sensibly. Again I expect further improvements with the next patch.

4. What was the biggest problem at launch and how has it been addressed (or not) in your opinion?

At launch they were to numerous to list. My understanding is that BFC was in a contract squeeze of some description and simply couldn't wait any longer. There are whole threads on this issue.

Single player real time now works very, very well.

Currently,the multi player options are still limited and require more fiddling than is ideal. You can play WEGO by PBEM but not head to head continously.

5. How well does the game support/simulate MOUT gaming? Is it still focused like CM 1x on open terrain or does the system appropriate adjust?

The game was written with MOUT gaming in mind and as of 1.08 generally simulates it very well. You can read endless complaints about little stuff on this board, I have written a few of them, but mostly at this point they are little stuff. And it all gets better every patch.

[MikeyD]

1. Game is not lopsided in favor of the Americans. It simulates real-world and real world is lop-sided in favor of the Americans. BUT American advantages are largely big-picture strategic. On smaller tactical company/platoon size engagements local conditions often negate any overall advantages.

2. Wego still works. I play 100% realtime. Why? Because I'm not obsessive-compulsive about the detail of command and am content to go with the flow of battle. I trust the AI to protect my back.

3. There's a very nice Marine module promo youtube. It shows tactics, maneuver, terrain and firepower being used in a true-life manner.

4. Problem at launch? Uh.... 2x3k hilly maps with everything including the kitchen sink can take some time to launch. On the plus side once the scenario's running framerate is almost always pretty good. Standard-size scenarios at standard game setting aren't a problem at all.

5. MOUT gaming is good and getting better by leaps and bounds. A newbie has to understand though this isn't a FPS game and doesn't play like one. So no monsters jumping out of closets or hidden power crystals to grab. But what shooter game can send an entire heavy mech company into a city center at 3.30am and keep fighting until sun-up?

The nit-pickers rarely mention that this reall is a VERY cool game! Firing TOW missiles the full length of a huge map a night. Helicopter gunship runs. .50 Cal Barrett sniper rifle teams. Most board complaints just nibble at the edges of the game.

[medlinke]

I appreciate what seem like candid responses.

Anything that I haven't thought to ask that I should know about?

[SlowMotion]

Many people are probably curious about how big an improvement the next patch will be. If you're still unsure of whether CMSF is worth buying come back after one month and read what people think about Marines module / 1.10 patch.

[MarkEzra]

I appreciate what seem like candid responses.

Anything that I haven't thought to ask that I should know about?

Yes...This game is worth the price of admission. I've watched it blossom and grow since it's difficult birth. I played CMx1 since the beta demo. I loved all of them and had many, many pleasant hours, playing, designing scen, and modifying the games. Along about V1.07 of CMSF I took off all the old CM games from my PC...I just couldn't go back to playing them. Love them though I did they are the past.

You mentioned Vids: I hope you'll take a look..a number of people, myself among them, have put them up. It is a way of expressing the wargaming experience. But think about this for a second: Movie maker/fraps have been around for a while (simple, free movie making tools) How many Vids have you seen of any other wargames (not talking trailers or ads). Where are the CMx1 movies...believe me when CMBO came out a lot of guys tried to get that going...Now that it's simple to do there have been how many made? The reason is the graphics and the simple elegance that remains WEGO lends CMx2 the unique ability to tell an actual story. No other Game can do this though their "eye candy" be sweeter their engine limits the Vid Creator to showing only what the game designer will allow. Not so CMSF... it's the most flexible, room for growth engine around.

The editor and AI multiple plans: This subject was not brought up so let me say a word or two here.

The editor is far advanced from Cmx1. It allows the scen designer to create multiple plans (up to 5) for either attack or defend missions. This means the AI can come at you 5 different ways in a scen. remember getting your clock cleaned on a well done CMBO/BB/AK scen? And then going back in and ripping the AI a new one? CMx2 says not so fast. What worked for you the last time may well prove disaster for you the next. It's the combination of the AI plus a crafty scen designer using the multiple plans of the editor. While you may never use the editor, those that do are creating great scen with a big re-playability factor.

I sure hope you'll give CMx2 a shot

[Lurker765]

Just try the demo too see if you like it. If you want to see the latest and greatest patch then wait for the Marines module since they should update the CMSF demo at that time.

[MikeyD]

"Many people are probably curious about how big an improvement the next patch will be."

It'll be big enough.

And lets not forget the Marine module almost doubles(?) the scope of the base game and an eventual British army module is rumored.

Imagine you know zero about CMSF and someone tells you there's a 3-D realtime middle-east tactical combat sim involving accurate forces for both Army and Marines rendered down to individual units and playing up to and beyond Company scale. And it'll run on your PC and only costs $XX. Not know anything else about it you'd have to jump on it!

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[cool breeze]

Is it the best game ever? Yes.

[Lampshade111]

In my opinion the original game (before the current patches) was pretty lousy. It ran much worse than it should have on most computers, it often crashed, and was very buggy. However the patches have done a great job fixing things. Not all of the bugs and problems are gone but things have certainly improved and will hopefully continue to do so.

I just wish I could get rid of the bug where units teleport around the map, and the occasional random crash. I always have to restart my comp before I play or else these issues happen to me.

[CogNative]

medlinke re: Honest Review

Moon - Administrator "It might be hard to get it on these boards otherwise. You'll either get fans or haters (with an agenda?), with very little in between."

Moon is spot on, IMO. I have all 3 - CMx1 games. Great Fun but compared to CMSF 1.08, MarkEzra hit the 10 ring. "Yes...This game is worth the price of admission... I took off all the old CM games from my PC...I just couldn't go back to playing them. Love them though I did they are the past."

I still have all 3 - CMx1 games on my old G4 but... why bother? CMSF is now a much better game than the CMx1 games.

Elmar Bijlsma "I am playing more in RT. Just so much more flexible and hands on."

Even with the graphic limitations of my MacBook Pro issues, RT-CMSF is a HOOT!

MikeyD nails it ... IMO "Game is not lopsided in favor of the Americans. It simulates real-world and real world is lop-sided in favor of the Americans."

I make NO posturing re: my gaming experience. Many on these boards have substantially greater experience in game-play. I have NO game development experience.

Bottom Line: If you are interested in an entertainment & replay value .. Buy CMSF. I have gotten my money's worth in entertainment value+.

CogNative

[hoolaman]

The problems at release were discussed extensively here. They probably fall into two categories.

1. Things that were in the old games but aren't in this one.

2. Bugs that ruin what IS in the game.

The things that were left out that people liked in CMBB are still not there for the most part. Some are planned to go into the next game based on this engine, some probably are gone forever. A combination of lack of programming time, lack of computing resources and a different design philosophy is the cause of this.

I'm talking about: No random maps, no points based purchasing of units, more complicated (but more versatile) scripted AI, problems with the underlying "action spot" system, 1:1 instead of abstracted squads (yes people actually wanted a fairly decent 1:1 representation replaced with an even worse abstracted 3-man tile). All these were complained about long and loud. Most people got over it and just enjoyed what WAS there.

Second we have things that sucked in the original release but have been fixed or vastly improved. Things like: Poor performance, bad graphical appearance, lack of TacAI evasive routines, poor pathing, poor infantry TacAI and modelling, poor camera controls, poor game controls, strange spotting and line-of-fire results.

Between 1.07 and 1.08 there are a few extra tweaks and fixes, but I'd say the game was up to standard at 1.07, which is the demo version. The game's pretty cheap, and if you like this style of game, I think it's worth buying.

[YankeeDog]

You should be getting that when the Marines module/v1.10 patch is out next month I would think. It might be hard to get it on these boards otherwise. You'll either get fans or haters (with an agenda?), with very little inbetween

Martin

This is one of the most honest comments I've ever seen in the commercial sphere.

Personally, I love the game the way it is now and enjoy playing it immensely (when I have the time, which isn't often, unfortunately). Nevertheless, my advice is to wait a few weeks, and try the updated demo that is sure to come out with or shortly after the Marines Module. Then you can decide for yourself based on the latest and greatest.

Cheers,

YD

[MarkEzra]

I just wish I could get rid of the bug where units teleport around the map, and the occasional random crash. I always have to restart my comp before I play or else these issues happen to me.

I assume you have the latest patch so this concerns me. If it is possible to catch the teleport in a save game please send it to me. Since you mention crashes I think your Rigs setup and graphics card info might be required as well.

[Lampshade111]

Okay, I will try to get you a save game and my specs. I am upgrading this winter however so I hope that will clear some of the issues up.

[medlinke]

I downloaded and worked through the demo.

The only things I found frustrating were:

1. The AI pathing for vehicles in rough terrain. They bobble back and forth kinda strange, but I can just call it a 3 point turn and be happy. Just looks strange.

2. In CM 1x I could select a unit and press enter to see the kills. I don't see that. I must be overlooking something.

3. Enemy infantry in buildings / open terrain can be REALLY hard to spot sometimes. I cannot tell you how many times I though I'd cleared an area only to have an enemy HQ pop up or a forward observer. Likewise, in the city assault mission that heavy weapons squad in the northeast corner of the map would NOT die. They took out 2 strykers before the other 6 got them...yes 6 and it took 7 minutes.

4. When I captured the diamond objective, it didn't recognize the capture like the other two. Was it because I used the mortars to destroy the buildings on that objective?

Overall it was a great experience. Any tips so I can squeeze the most out of the demo experience?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

1) What version demo was that? It should say which version it is on the splash screen. The really odd behaviour was rooted out a while ago. Haven't seen anything too weird in a while now.

2)Sadly, that feature is missing and, indeed, much missed too. BFC said this feature would return someday.

3) C'est la guerre.

4)Can't remember the victory conditions. Was there any opposition at that location?

[medlinke]

The demo was 1.07.

The problem, I think, with the forces in town, at least, was that they were irregulars so in reading the manual I guess they are invisible until they fire.

I had captured and killed every living thing within a 200 meter range of that objective. I was running squads into surrounding buildings to be certain and put a squad on every level of both buildings and in the courtyard. It was really strange.

The game never said I captured it, but when the scenario ended I was given full credit.