Warning Order: HBO July 13th

[hellfish]

To get you all moist and warm for CMSF: Marines, HBO's new mini-series Generation Kill, about recon Marines in OIF1 will be premiering on Sunday the 13th at 9pm EST.

http://www.hbo.com/generationkill/

[Imperial Grunt]

I am hesitant about this series, and I did not read the book. 1st Recon was with RCT-1 during the push and I did come across them several times. (I was with 2/23, the third infantry battalion of RCT-1). I have a fellow Marine infantry officer whom I have known for a long time who strongly disagreed with some of the stuff put in the book and said that the book suffered from a few malcontent perspectives that were skewed negatively to the reporter that was embedded with the unit.

The clips on the website did bring back some memories, until I heard the " L-T" line. That is just not heard in the Marine Corps, just like "sarge" is not uttered as well.

I guess I will have to wait and see....

[Nicdain]

I was looking at the Generation Kill web site and I ran into the "gear up" page: here the Marines gear is explained. From what I can see the main weapon is the M4 and not the M16A2. Is this a mistake by the film production?

[Field Marshal Blücher]

I was looking at the Generation Kill web site and I ran into the "gear up" page: here the Marines gear is explained. From what I can see the main weapon is the M4 and not the M16A2. Is this a mistake by the film production?

Some Marine units used the M4 during OIF. The author of "One Bullet Away" said he used an M4 in 1st Recon. Maybe it's a Recon thing?

[hellfish]

I am hesitant about this series, and I did not read the book. 1st Recon was with RCT-1 during the push and I did come across them several times. (I was with 2/23, the third infantry battalion of RCT-1). I have a fellow Marine infantry officer whom I have known for a long time who strongly disagreed with some of the stuff put in the book and said that the book suffered from a few malcontent perspectives that were skewed negatively to the reporter that was embedded with the unit.

The clips on the website did bring back some memories, until I heard the " L-T" line. That is just not heard in the Marine Corps, just like "sarge" is not uttered as well.

I guess I will have to wait and see....

To be honest, it's not an historical book. It's a book written by an entertainment reporter embedded with the Marines. It's mostly about the junior Marines he met - the Generation Xers and Generation Yers.

From my Marine friends, it seems the guys who did their 4 years and got out liked the book, but anybody who became a Corps lifer tended to hate it. Same as Jarhead.

[tc237]

To be honest, it's not an historical book. It's a book written by an entertainment reporter embedded with the Marines. It's mostly about the junior Marines he met - the Generation Xers and Generation Yers.

From my Marine friends, it seems the guys who did their 4 years and got out liked the book, but anybody who became a Corps lifer tended to hate it. Same as Jarhead.

Agree with hellfish, I've read about half the book (like most books I own).

I remember thinking "this guy found the most disfunctional unit in the Corps"

It did have a "raw" and "this is the real sh*t" feeling and really captured the way Soldiers, Marines, etc.. talk and act, especially the younger guys.

Hopefully, this "raw" aspect does not come off as the undisciplined, uneducated, stereotype that infects most hollywood productions.

[John Kettler]

I thought GENERATION KILL was a terrific read, albeit one in which the "names were changed to protect the guilty." Even so, I thought the book did a brilliant job of depicting Clausewitzian "friction" at work, whether simple things like open sewers bogging mighty M1s or "geniuses" who failed to bring batteries forward, hamstringing unit night combat effectiveness in the process.

hellfish,

Didn't know about the series. Appreciate the alert!

Regards,

John Kettler

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

Heh, what a coincidence, I just finished reading "generation kill" and "one bullet away-the making of a marine officer" by Nathaniel Fick, the officer in charge of the unit that evan wright (the reporter) was embedded in. i hope the miniseries will find it´s way into a torrent, so I also can see it.

Generation kill is not a history, but I think it´s good complementary reading to slick histories like "Cobra II" (Gordon & Trainor). For all the hype of "blitzkrieg" and GPS guided missiles, in "generation kill" you see that that small iraqi towns were indiscriminately pounded by massive artillery barrages, just to be on the safe side.

What I didn´t quite get in both books, is that for all the talk of being the spearhead of the marines, the recon marines seem to be catching up with other marine units most of the time or passing long resupply columns. Maybe the miniseries will clear that up with some pretty graphics.

[CupOHemlock]

Uh oh... I had best re-order HBO then... damn... 13 dollars a month.

[Imperial Grunt]

;1077539']Heh, what a coincidence, I just finished reading "generation kill" and "one bullet away-the making of a marine officer" by Nathaniel Fick, the officer in charge of the unit that evan wright (the reporter) was embedded in. i hope the miniseries will find it´s way into a torrent, so I also can see it.

Generation kill is not a history, but I think it´s good complementary reading to slick histories like "Cobra II" (Gordon & Trainor). For all the hype of "blitzkrieg" and GPS guided missiles, in "generation kill" you see that that small iraqi towns were indiscriminately pounded by massive artillery barrages, just to be on the safe side.

What I didn´t quite get in both books, is that for all the talk of being the spearhead of the marines, the recon marines seem to be catching up with other marine units most of the time or passing long resupply columns. Maybe the miniseries will clear that up with some pretty graphics.

I guess that is one of the problems about the book being about the reporter's views of some of the vocal junior Marines and not be historical. The book would probably have been better if it was balanced with some of the history and expand on the operations. The lead element for the RCTs was actually the LAR battalions for the most part. 1st Recon definitely led the way at times, but not all the time. In many cases they were shuffled in the order of march of RCT-1, just like the infantry and artillery battalions.

I do not know if this is talked about much in the book, but 1st Recon operated in completely different manner in which the battalion normally operated. They were given HMMWVs and heavy guns, and made into a "desert rats" type force, since all the deep recon missions were being conducted by Force Recon or other special operations forces. The RCTs were simply moving too fast for any traditional employment of 1st Recon Battalion.

Still, it is easy to look at any organization, find a few vocal malcontents, end your story with them and paint a picture of chaos, ineptitude, and failure.

[hellfish]

It wasn't designed to be a history book, and it had no obligation to be. The Marines knew who Wright was when they let him tag along.

I read a lot of books by embedded reporters/writers in OIF and I'd argue that Wright's is the only one to pay full attention to the enlisted. So many of the books written were about O-3s or above, with scant attention paid to the enlisted men. I think a lot of the embeds came across as snotty pricks too - keeping with the well educated officers instead of entering the [sarcasm]terrifying realm of the unwashed enlisted masses who listened to rap music and heavy metal. [/sarcasm] By and large I got the impression that most embeds were intimidated by the enlisted men, which is why so much time in their books was spent on officers, to whom they could find a kinship in education and middle/upper-class affluence, and also why so much of their book involved the embeds themselves.

Wright's book was easily one of the best to come out of OIF so far, along with Colby Buzzel's book and Nathaniel Fick's. Bing West deliberately focused on higher echelons, so I can't fault him for that. He was also more interested in the history of the fight, rather than the people who fought it.

[Sgt Joch]

I saw the first episode. It is better than I expected. The action, equipment, uniforms, terrain all seem fairly realistic.

The dialogue and character interplay are good, striking the right tone between humor and drama and pro and anti-war sentiment..plus it has a politically incorrect streak which is refreshing.

The look and story structure appear to have been heavily influenced by "Band of Brothers", which is not surprising.

I am looking forward to seeing the rest.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Are we going to get a titanium shield mod?

[Sgt Joch]

you will get many new toys to play with..

[Clavicula_Nox]

It wasn't designed to be a history book, and it had no obligation to be. The Marines knew who Wright was when they let him tag along.

I read a lot of books by embedded reporters/writers in OIF and I'd argue that Wright's is the only one to pay full attention to the enlisted. So many of the books written were about O-3s or above, with scant attention paid to the enlisted men. I think a lot of the embeds came across as snotty pricks too - keeping with the well educated officers instead of entering the [sarcasm]terrifying realm of the unwashed enlisted masses who listened to rap music and heavy metal. [/sarcasm] By and large I got the impression that most embeds were intimidated by the enlisted men, which is why so much time in their books was spent on officers, to whom they could find a kinship in education and middle/upper-class affluence, and also why so much of their book involved the embeds themselves.

Wright's book was easily one of the best to come out of OIF so far, along with Colby Buzzel's book and Nathaniel Fick's. Bing West deliberately focused on higher echelons, so I can't fault him for that. He was also more interested in the history of the fight, rather than the people who fought it.

That's pretty much my problem with almost every OIF book I've read so far. Too much emphasis on brigade and battalion commanders, with only small quotes from the combat soldier. I've always passed Generation Kill simply because it's about Marines, but maybe I'll have to make an exception this one time.

[MeatEtr]

It's alright I guess, just seemed to be a bunch of kids trying to act kool, or what they think is kool. I didn't see all of it though, I'll catch the rest later.

[Lee]

Well, I decided to check out the first episode of this show out of curiosity. I know and have met quite a few military guys and they are, as a rule, a disciplined and professional bunch in how they act. It's like this reporter spent all of his time focusing mainly on a few of the biggest goofs he could possibly find, it seems like half the guys in the unit are always complaining or whining about something and/or arguing with each other.

So what you get is a distorted view that leaves a pretty bad impression to those that don't know better, instead of showing what a typical Marine unit is actually like. An average Marine unit has to have more of a professional demeanor than that.

Oh, one really annoying thing in the show was when these arab soldiers show up saying they want to surrender. Then word comes down from HQ saying that the unit has to move out right away and to send the enemy soldiers back where they came from. Then some Marine standing there gives some speech in a somber tone about how the Geneva conventions say they should take the prisoners or something stupid like that (*sob, cry*), trying to make out the Marines as being mean or whatever. This is war we're talking about, this is a recon unit that is on the move taking the fight to the enemy, they don't have time to stop and baby sit arabs who are abandoning their posts en masse. They have important objectives that have to be scouted and/or seized without delay and there is no time for nonsense like this. Probably the single stupidest thing I saw in the whole show (and there wasn't a shortage of things to pick from).

[hellfish]

He focuses on the junior enlisted men. All the NCOs in the book and show are pretty professional, but the junior enlistedmen act like they're right out of high school. Because they are. Having been a junior enlistedman in the infantry, I can tell you they're all goofs. They'll fight like lions, but they're goofs.

As for your complaining about the troops whining about sending the Iraqis back to the death squads - God forbid American troops should have a shred of humanity.

Idiot.

[Lee]

What does it have to do with "humanity"? The taking of prisoners and ferrying them all over the place back to rear bases is always subject to the necessities of war, the recon unit had no time for such things, it's as simple as that. This has nothing to do with the "humanity" of the Marines, it's the reality of war, and they did exactly the right thing. But the show makes it all like it's this big mean thing they are doing, when it isn't.

As far as Iraqi death squads, no one said those arabs had to go back to chat with those particular guys, they could go anywhere they wanted to go, they had already deserted. But the Marines had no time to waste with them.

While it's not unexpected that junior enlisted guys would be more "uneven" in their behavior than more experienced Marines, this writer lays it on *awfully* thick. Don't get me wrong, I fully expect the guys to be gung ho, ready to kick serious butt and all that (which is a good thing), but the complaining and arguing seemed to be almost non-stop at times.

[MeatEtr]

I caught the first two episodes tonight back to back. Not bad, certainly worth watching the rest of this miniseries. But damn, is just me or is that kid driving very annoying?

But the show makes it all like it's this big mean thing they are doing, when it isn't.

I didn't get that impression at all. I think the tactical situation is pretty obvious to most, even non-military people. Recon don't fiddle with prisoners, they'll be plenty of follow-on troops to deal with them. Simply put, a marine voiced his concern about the potential death-squad demise for the prisoners. But I think the way it was said was a bit over the top with the mentioning of the Geneva Convention.

[tarball]

I know and have met quite a few military guys and they are, as a rule, a disciplined and professional bunch in how they act.

Then some Marine standing there gives some speech in a somber tone about how the Geneva conventions say they should take the prisoners or something stupid like that (*sob, cry*), trying to make out the Marines as being mean or whatever.

It is rare to find such low-hanging fruit as the logical inconsistency you offer here in your statement. If these guys are professional and disciplined, then they WOULD give quarter to surrendering soldiers and make arrangements for their safe captivity under human and civil conditions. Gee, don'cha think this move, coupled with the general chaos of the balance of 2003 in terms of lies, deception and mismanagement towards the conquered people of Iraq, contributed towards the subsequent insurgency?

Honestly, a civilized and urbane nation will abide by the commiments it keeps - such as being a signotory to international treaties such as the Geneva Convention.

In any case, the attitude displayed towards those prisoners is no different than the other "undisciplined" behaviors you abhor in the book/tv-series. Perhaps it is appropriate that the grunts are cold-blooded killers with no remorse; but, as gentlemen, the officers should have done better. Of course, operationally they could not have, which means the responsibility lies much higher up the chain. That leadership NEVER took responsibility for the problems created by the planning and execution of the invasion and occupation from 2003-2005.

[tarball]

As far as Iraqi death squads, no one said those arabs had to go back to chat with those particular guys, they could go anywhere they wanted to go, they had already deserted. But the Marines had no time to waste with them.

History has proven your optimism here to be naive.

While it's not unexpected that junior enlisted guys would be more "uneven" in their behavior than more experienced Marines, this writer lays it on *awfully* thick. Don't get me wrong, I fully expect the guys to be gung ho, ready to kick serious butt and all that (which is a good thing), but the complaining and arguing seemed to be almost non-stop at times.

If you spend a considerable amount of time with this age group, which I do and have, you'll see their behaviors as being fairly standard of young men 18-22. I am generally around young people of a higher socio-economic order than shown in the series and these more-fortunate kids display many of the same proclivities seen in the show. Perhaps, for effect, the television series is overstating the behaviors, but I don't see the behavior of the crew in the lead HMMWV, which is the focus of the series primarily, as been outlandish. I've see each of those personalities in get Xers and Yers.

Remember, this is through the eyes of a popular journalist corresponding for a "pop culture" magazine - the story is how the "hip-hop, video games and heavy metal" ADD generation went to fight a war. To a degree, the author may be pandering. In any case, the book is a good slice of the war and the series seems to be sticking to the book fairly.

I've also been exposed to a fair number of these young men as they've come home and sought their GI benefits... their stories somewhat corroborate the tenor of the book.

[tarball]

But I think the way it was said was a bit over the top with the mentioning of the Geneva Convention.

That international agreement for the treatment of prisoners is the crux of the argument. I don't know the military/marine corps law governing the issue, but we are a party to this agreement: http://www.ppu.org.uk/learn/texts/doc_geneva_con_sp.html.

We now all know that forces were spread THIN, but perhaps those units were not. Rather than radio back to determine what to do with those guys, who were holding our propaganda encouraging surrender, "Godfather" summarily tossed them aside. Operationally, we all know why these prisoners were not retained, but perhaps, now in hindsight, we should examine why those prisoners were not afforded proper detention.

Hindsight has given us quite a few incidents to review with respect to our treatment of prisoners. While I have faith that 90% or more of our cases of prisoner detention are exemplary, we owe it to ourselves to improve towards 100%.

In any case, it is alarming that a few of you are so dismissive of international treaties and laws, such as the Geneva Convention. I suppose there is natural hostility towards the humanist agenda when the subject is war and killing - this is why the officer ranks are supposed to be the gentlemen, those entrusted to ensure that civility tempers unbridaled blood-lust. It is a timeless balancing act amongst the fighting forces of civilized nations.

[Clavicula_Nox]

but the complaining and arguing seemed to be almost non-stop at times.

Yeah, you've never been in the military.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I thought the second episode was great. I don't know how they made it through that town without any casualties.