WW2..?

[juan_gigante]

But no tanks. Tanks are key. Besides, CM is small unit actions, not big stuff. I predict the two will be WWII ETO, likely west front, and US/UN vs. North Korea/China(?) set in 2006.

[Emar]

Well lets think about this. The CM2 threads have stated that the average unit size for each side will be about a Company with maybe a few support units with larger sizes possible in later releases as hardware improves( this would equate to no bigger than a 'tiny" or the short side of a "small" battle in CM1 terms ). I would think as a general rule that this in itself would preclude any pre WWII release for the game as I would think you would want a larger force size available to accurately portray most battles(ie if you did the Civil War you might be able to do a Jeb Stuart small raid or some such but the average battle would be out, same for Napoleon era, WWI etc. Way too small to do a serious engagement in horse and single shot days)

Now a lot of posts include mention of grenades, tanks, vehicles, etc. so most likely latter half of 20th century. Company size actions make sense in the WWII context.

Now as to the posibility of post WWII action. I see a big reason why this might not be the subject of the first releases. The crew at BF have been working plenty hard on this new game engine. In the gaming world extra time spent on getting a new product out costs money and allows competition to catch up with you (though I have not seen anyone take a serious shot at BF's throne). Also technology marches on. How many times have we seen other game companies spend years developing a "cutting edge" game only to have the development take so long that when it is released it is not cutting edge any more.

My point is this, the tank, vehicle and unit data and OOB for WWII has already been assimulated by BF. They know what armor a Tiger has, what a 76mm gun will penetrate and how fast a Sherman goes. Now I ask you would you as a developer put all of your time into your new game engine which down the road could be used by your self or farmed out to others to do battles in all timelines of history? (and make you money sooner as well) Or would you spend half your time researching laser sighting, helicopters, computer gunnery, guided missiles, thermal imagery, modern OOB, etc. etc. into your first new game.

Now I would give Korea a big if (mostly WWII equipment and company action just fine there), but other than that I don't see the first 2 releases being anything but WWII

Of course I have been known to be wrong from time to time. I was divorced twice

[ August 26, 2005, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Emar ]

[Battlefront.com]

Remember that my comments about stuff are always directed at discussion what the game engine is capable of, not necessarily what is going to be in the first release. I've mentioned everything from horse cavalry to Space Lobsters... that's quite a range and it is interesting to see people only picking out the things they want to see. People are sooooo funny that way

Steve

[juan_gigante]

But they've also said that they're getting a little bored of WWII. So bored vs. a bunch done already kind of balances out, I think. Which is why one WWII, one not seems pretty reasonable to me.

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Remember that my comments about stuff are always directed at discussion what the game engine is capable of, not necessarily what is going to be in the first release. I've mentioned everything from horse cavalry to Space Lobsters... that's quite a range and it is interesting to see people only picking out the things they want to see. People are sooooo funny that way

Steve

A-ha!

If we take the arithmetic mean of Space Lobsters and Horse Cavalry, we get WWII. It's all a conspiracy masterminded by the Saucer People

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH

*runs off to get tinfoil hat*

[Salkin]

I AM NOT BORED OF WW2 !!!

There, I said it, and I'll say it again if needs be. I have taken a loooooong brake in CM just to be ready for the next installment of "Combat Mission:Hitler must die II" .

//Salkin

(Name of game may change)

[Pvt. Ryan]

It's been about six years since a quality WWII strategy game was released. I'm ready for another one.

[Emar]

I'm all about WWII too!. But I would not mind trying a Korea game either. Could be fun Shermans and Pershings vs. T-34's and it is certainly a theater that has not been overdone in the gaming world

Plus I had a few family members in that one. Some real tough fights from what I have heard.

[ August 26, 2005, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Emar ]

[aka_tom_w]

did Steve ever out and out say NO to Korea

(like he did to the Cold War "potential" confllict)

or is Korea still very much alive and possibly on the drawing board....

Korea was on his list was it not?

YUP there it is NUMBER 3 on the list!

this was the "off the top of his head" list from last May

posted June 03, 2005 11:34 PM

Battlefront.com

Administrator

Member # 42

posted May 19, 2005 01:20 PM

CMx2 allows us to, in theory, do all of the following game settings, each of which could constitute many stand alone games (i.e. setting is too big for one game):

WWII ETO

WWII PTO

1950s Korea

2000s Korea

WWI

Napoleonics

US Civil War

100 Years War

Medival

Ancient (European)

Ancient (Asian)

Contemporary

Cold War

Near Future

Far Future

Fantasy (D&D style)

Alien Invasion

Post Apocalyptic

And probably a whole bunch of things I just didn't think of in 1 minute

The point is that as long as the combat is predominantly ground based, CMx2 can do pretty much anything. Certainly it could do all of the above, though with differing amounts of effort of course. So when I say we have a Top 5 List (which in a formal sense we don't), there is a lot of theoretical possibillities out there for us to pursue. Inluding all 5 being WWII ETO to all 5 being Fantasy, even though we would never enslave ourselves to just one genre for the next 5 years.

Steve

[juan_gigante]

Keep in mind - I don't mean the old 1950s Korean War. I'm talking about wholly hypothetical war set a fes years in the future, wherein the US and allies go onto the ground to take down North Korea, which may have Chinese support just to make it interesting.

[Cpl Steiner]

Lets see how recent wars stack up in the eyes of the average guy in the street (i.e. not your typical war buff, who will buy the game anyway).

Pre WWII - No-one can remember it.

Korea - Some sort of dodgy UN police action that, again, most people can't remember.

Vietnam - Even more dodgy

Iraq - Forget it!

WWII - Good versus Evil. Saving Private Ryan. Band of Brothers. Practically every decent war film ever made.

Bingo!

[Emar]

Nice pull on that list Tom. WWII and 50's Korea are the top ones on it. :cool:

I think the future Korea battle might be cool too but I just don't see them taking the time to research modern weapons, computer powered and laser guided equipment and munitions, composite armor tanks, etc.. Not to mention modern OOB, and unit tactics for a first release. Maybe down the line but too much time spent on things other than the engine for now. 50's Korea on the other hand uses vehicles and equipment whose charactoristics have already been calculated.(Sherman,s T-34's, PPSH, Garand, Pershing, Browning mg, BAR, etc.etc.)

Of course I have been known to be wrong from time to time. I was divorced twice.

[ August 26, 2005, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Emar ]

[Midnight Warrior]

Arguments for why the first game may be Korea 50-53

1. Even though there were not a lot of big armor vs armor battles both sides had lots of different vehicle types (even if the the Communist didn't have large numbers of them). However, there are not so many vehicle types as to take forever to develop them. And more polygons mean longer time to develop a given vehicle. Thus in Korea there can be a lot of vehicle types but not too many so that the time to market gets too long.

2. These vehicles once developed can largely be reused on both sides for WWII scenarios since most of them are WWII era vehicles.

3. Korea gives a welcome break from WWII burn out but still allows them to take advantage of their WWII data bases.

4. Some of the late war cool vehilces and weapons that didn't see much action such as Pershings, recoiless rifles, etc. get a chance to be more prominent.

5. Though there are lots of different nationalities for the UN there is only North Korean and Chinese units to worry about on the communist side so that there aren't as many nationalities that have to be modeled that would increase time to market.

6. The infantry oriented nature of the conflict shows off the 1:1 better than heavy armored engagements.

7. Pitting US vehcles against Russian is intriguing and has lots of intellectual appeal. Potential for lots of what if scenarios.

8. Lots of historical data available in addition to the reuse of WW2 data

9. A really good game on the Korean war would probably get rave reviews from the gaming community

10. Korean War title is not a good title in a Best Buy sales environment but there is a glut of WWII games in that market and CMX2 is not trslly competing in that market. The Korean war title plus good reviews, cool graphics (but probably not that much better than the RTS out there), plus the CM 1,2, & 3 reputation should not only generate sales but whet people's appetite for the next modules that might then go back to WWII for both ETO, East Front, Med, and PTO.

11. Perhaps helos might be included in that they did make a debut in the combat roles in Korea.

12. This would provide a spring board in which to spring back to WWII or spring forard to the Middle East, Nam, etc.

13. The two company sized battle limit would fit in a Korean war scenario better than many WWII scenarios except early PTO like Guadacanal, Philippines, Indonesia, etc.

14. Not too many different types of terrain to have to initially model.

15. It would be fun to play!

16. It's time for the "Forgotten War" to be remembered!

[Neutral Party]

Of course it will be WW2 - like duh!

Western Europe 92.75%

Eatern Front 7.24%

Something else 0.01%

chances of these numbers being wrong 42.725%

[Michael Dorosh]

Arguments for why the first game may be <font color="blue">Finland 1939</font>

1. Even though there were not a lot of big armor vs armor battles both sides had lots of different vehicle types (even if the the Communist didn't have large numbers of them). However, there are not so many vehicle types as to take forever to develop them. And more polygons mean longer time to develop a given vehicle. Thus in Finland there can be a lot of vehicle types but not too many so that the time to market gets too long.

2. These vehicles once developed can largely be reused on both sides for WWII scenarios since most of them are late WWII era vehicles.

3. Finland/Poland gives a welcome break from "Nazi" burn out but still allows them to take advantage of their WWII data bases.

4. Some of the late war cool vehilces (sic) and weapons that didn't see much action such as JS IIs and IIIs, King Tigers, etc., don't have to be coded.

5. Though there are lots of different nationalities for the Allies there is only Soviet Union units to worry about on the communist side so that there aren't as many nationalities that have to be modeled that would increase time to market.

6. The infantry oriented nature of the conflict shows off the 1:1 better than heavy armored engagements.

7. Pitting Finnish/Polish vehcles against Russian is intriguing and has lots of intellectual appeal. Potential for lots of what if scenarios especially if Japanese troops and a Manchuria theatre are included.

8. Lots of historical data available in addition to the reuse of WW2 data, just ask the Finns on the board!

9. A really good game on the Finnish War would probably get rave reviews from the gaming community in Finland

10. Finnish War title is not a good title in a Best Buy sales environment but there is a glut of Eastern/Western Front WWII games in that market and CMX2 is not trully (sic) competing in that market. The Finnish war title plus good reviews, cool graphics (but probably not that much better than the RTS out there), plus the CM 1,2, & 3 reputation should not only generate sales but whet people's appetite for the next modules that might then go back to ETO, East Front, Med, and PTO.

11. Perhaps reindeer sleds and Pullkas might be included in that they did make a debut in the combat roles in Finland.

12. This would provide a spring board in which to spring back to WWII.

13. The two company sized battle limit would fit in a Finnish war scenario better than many WWII scenarios except early PTO like Guadacanal, Philippines, Indonesia, etc.

14. Not too many different types of terrain to have to initially model.

15. It would be fun to play!

16. It's time for the "Forgotten War" to be remembered!

Ayo Gurkhali

[ August 26, 2005, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Gordon]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Remember that my comments about stuff are always directed at discussion what the game engine is capable of, not necessarily what is going to be in the first release. I've mentioned everything from horse cavalry to Space Lobsters... that's quite a range and it is interesting to see people only picking out the things they want to see. People are sooooo funny that way

Steve

As long as we're going to be able to have mounted space lobsters executing saber charges, I'm happy. :cool:

[Michael Dorosh]

Arguments for why the first game may be Juno Beach to <font color="brown">Falaise July-Aug 1944 on the Canadian Front</font>

1. Even though there were a lot of big armor vs armor battles and both sides had lots of different vehicle types, the Krauts didn't have large numbers of them. However, there are not so many vehicle types as to take forever to develop them. And more polygons mean longer time to develop a given vehicle. Thus in JUNO TO FALAISE there can be a lot of vehicle types but not too many so that the time to market gets too long.

2. These vehicles once developed can largely be reused on both sides for WWII scenarios since most of them were used for the rest of WWII.

3. Juno to Tractable gives a welcome break from North Africa/Italy burn out but still allows them to take advantage of their WWII data bases.

4. Some of the late war cool vehilces (sic) and weapons that didn't see much action such as Pershings, recoiless rifles, etc. get a chance to be totally ignored.

5. Though there are lots of different nationalities for the Germans (SS, Luft Felddivisioned, Luft Para, Heer) there is only Canadian units to worry about on the Allied side so that there aren't as many nationalities that have to be modeled that would increase time to market.

6. The combined-arms nature of the conflict shows off the 1:1 better than infantry only engagements.

7. Pitting crappy US-made vehcles (sic) against German is intriguing and has lots of intellectual appeal. Potential for lots of what if scenarios.

8. Lots of historical data available in addition to the reuse of WW2 data from CMBO

9. A really good game on the Canadians in Normandy would probably get rave reviews from the gaming community if they're drunk enough

10. Juno to Falaise title is not a good title in a Best Buy sales environment but there is a glut of WWII games in that market and CMX2 is not trslly (sic) competing in that market. The Canadians in Normandy title plus good reviews, cool graphics (but probably not that much better than the RTS out there), plus the CM 1,2, & 3 reputation should not only generate sales but whet people's appetite for the next modules that might then go back to ETO, East Front, Med, and PTO.

11. Perhaps bagpipes might be included in that they did make their final debut in the combat roles in Normandy.

12. This would provide a spring board in which to spring back to NW Europe or spring forard (sic) to the Middle East, Nam, etc. and the glorious days of Peacekeeping as envisioned by Lester Pearson

13. The two company sized battle limit would fit in a Normandy war scenario better than many WWII scenarios except early PTO like Guadacanal, Philippines, Indonesia, etc. as the Canadians ALWAYS attacked two companies up, two companies back, with a cry of "hey diddle-diddle, straight up the middle!"

14. Not too many different types of terrain to have to initially model. Like, wheatfields, orchards, and run-down villages with bad cheese and unfermented Calvados.

15. It would be fun to play!

16. It's time for the "Forgotten War" to be remembered!

[Michael Dorosh]

Arguments for why the first game may be <font color="green">Guadalcanal 42-43</font>

1. Even though there were not a lot of big armor vs armor battles both sides had lots of different vehicle types (even if the the Japs didn't have large numbers of them). However, there are not so many vehicle types as to take forever to develop them. And more polygons mean longer time to develop a given vehicle. Thus on the Canal there can be a lot of vehicle types but not too many so that the time to market gets too long.

2. These vehicles once developed can largely be reused on both sides for WWII scenarios since most of them are late WWII era vehicles.

3. Guadalcanal gives a welcome break from Down in Flames burn out but still allows them to take advantage of their WWII data bases.

4. Some of the late war cool vehilces and weapons that didn't see much action such as Pershings, recoiless rifles, etc. get a chance to be cast aside like a set of Emrys' Odor Eaters after a long week.

5. Though there are lots of different nationalities for the US (Marines, Army, Seabees) there is only IJA and SNLF units to worry about on the Jap side so that there aren't as many nationalities that have to be modeled that would increase time to market.

6. The infantry oriented nature of the conflict shows off the 1:1 better than heavy armored engagements.

7. Pitting US testicles (sic) against coral snakes is intriguing and has lots of intellectual appeal. Potential for lots of what if scenarios.

8. Lots of historical data available in addition to the reuse of later WW2 data

9. A really good game on the Pacific war would probably get rave reviews from the gaming community and get them to STFU about the Pacific already!!! :mad:

10. Pacific War title is not a good title in a Best Buy sales environment but there is a glut of WWII games in that market and CMX2 is not trslly (sic) competing in that market. The Guadalcanal war title plus good reviews, cool graphics (but probably not that much better than the RTS out there), plus the CM 1,2, & 3 reputation should not only generate sales but whet people's appetite for the next modules that might then go back to ETO, East Front, Med, and PTO.

11. Perhaps George Clooney might be included in that he did make a debut in combat roles in that ****ty movie with Madonna's husband..

12. This would provide a spring board in which to spring back to later WWII or spring forard(sic) to the Middle East, Nam, etc.

13. The two company sized battle limit would fit in a Korean war scenario better than many WWII scenarios except early PTO like Guadacanal, Philippines, Indonesia, etc. OOOOPS. **** *shrugs*

14. Not too many different types of terrain to have to initially model. Like coconut trees, palm fronds, coconut groves, palm forests, coconut orchards, and palm bushes.

15. It would be fun to play!

16. It's time for the "Forgotten War" to be remembered!

[Brent Pollock]

Okay - knock it off already - I just sent the turn so you can turn your attention to that instead

[Michael Dorosh]

Arguments for why the first game may be <font color="tan">Seanachai vs. a Fifth of Scotch</font>

1. Even though there were not a lot of big armor vs armor battles in Minnesota or whatever no-nickname State he claims to be a resident of, both the State Police and the local sherrif had lots of different vehicle types (even if the Bard didn't have the means to recognize them). However, there are not so many vehicle types as to take forever to develop them. And more polygons mean longer time to develop a given vehicle. Thus in Seanachai's neighbourhood there can be a lot of vehicle types but not too many so that he can't evade them by slithering through the sewer like the wriggly worm he is.

2. These vehicles once developed can largely be riddled with machinegun fire during WWII training scenarios since most of them are highly flammable and 'splodey.

3. Seanachai gives a welcome break from actual human being burn out but still allows them to take advantage of their WWII data bases - as most of his undershorts hail from that era, handed down from generation to generation of Bards and Gnomes.

4. Some of the late war cool vehilces and weapons that didn't see much action such as Pershings, recoiless rifles, etc. get a chance to be more prominent when Seanachai gets drunk next to the Smithsonian and tries to find a place to pee.

5. Though there are lots of different nationalities for Seanachai to make drunken slurs about, there is only Asian units to worry about on the television news since his TV only gets "community access", that community being Chinatown where the rent fits his means.

6. The infantry oriented nature of the conflict in Seanachai's soul shows off the 1:1 better than heavy armored engagements.

7. Pitting Seanachai's Honda against the United States Seventh Fleet is intriguing and has lots of intellectual appeal. Potential for lots of what if scenarios. Like, how many ways can you make the little poet pay for what he'd done to us all these years?

8. Lots of historical data available in addition to the reuse of Seanachai's vital and donatable organs

9. A really good game on Seanachai war would probably get rave reviews from the lunatic fringe, now headquartered permanently in the Peng Thread and accounting for 8,000 of BFC's registered posters

10. Seanachai Exposes Himself title is not a good title in a Best Buy sales environment but there is a glut of diseased vermin in that market and CMX2 is not trslly competing in that market. The Seanachai title plus good reviews, cool graphics (but probably not that much better than the RTS out there), plus the CM 1,2, & 3 reputation should not only generate sales but whet people's appetite for the next modules that might then go back to WWII for both ETO, East Front, Med, and PTO.

11. Perhaps helos might be included in that they did make a debut in spotting the Bard from the air when he takes to stumbling home from Ogara's Bar and Grill .

12. This would provide a spring board in which to spring back to reality or spring forard to the multiple recurring sequels based on Forum personalities: JasonC vs. the Calculator, dalem vs. the North Koreans, and Mace vs. The Flock

13. The two company sized battle limit would fit in a drunken brawl scenario better than many WWII scenarios except early PTO like Guadacanal, Philippines, Indonesia, etc., though Guadalcanal was a little like a drunken brawl in Michigan or wherever the hell the Gnome is from, but without the Indian chants

14. Not too many different types of terrain to have to initially model. A sewer, a liquor store, a flop house and perhaps an internet cafe.

15. It would be fun to play!

16. It's time for the "Forgotten War" to be well and truly immortalized; the quicker we do that, the quicker we can forget it!

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

Okay - knock it off already - I just sent the turn so you can turn your attention to that instead

Sorry - had one more good one left in me!

EDIT - turn sent - hope my email still isn't acting up...or yours....as the case may be

[ August 26, 2005, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[lucero1148]

The speculations are getting pretty wild so my 2 cents would be that we're going to see something contempoary like the 1990 Gulf War and a mideval war simulation.

Why? It's a popular time period for gamer's. Also how many years have BFC been working on making this CMX engine? Plenty of time I would guess to do the research for a 1990's Gulf War simulation minus the air war aspect.

As for Mideval war, why not? It would be a great way to show off the flexibility of the game engine and its capabilities.

Patrick

[dangerousdave]

Isn't it high time for:

Greneda, 1983. The Gipper's War.

???

[dalem]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Arguments for why the first game may be <font color="tan">Seanachai vs. a Fifth of Scotch</font>

Scotch loses.

I've seen it.

It's not pretty.

Ever wake up and stumble out to the living room to find a gnome passed out on the couch?

Safety Tip from Igon: Don't stand in your kitchen at 4am and ask Seanachai if he's "Up for a couple of shots of bourbon".

Because he is.

-dale

[melb_will]

Why I think that Korea will definitely not be the next CM module.

Battlefront has consistently said that It will not be returning to the whole theatre approach seen in CMx1.

Can you imanagine the amount of work researching the Korean conflict. You propose to include all the UN armies, the early and late war. It will not happen. I suspect the first module will be somthing that Battlefront already has ample data sets on. Bulge or Normandy or CM A Bridge to Far (not ripped off )The second module could well be napoleonic but just a small part, ie Wellington's campaign on the Spanish penninsula a part of the Napoleonic era NOT covered by the upcoming Grognards game.

Cheers

Will