a call for more variety in the WWII CMx2 game

[76mm]

Kellysheroes,

you're being kind of a nut. the amount of content included in CMBO, CMBB, and CMBO were an aberration, probably never, ever, ever, to be seen again in the history of computer games. view it as a one-time gift from the boys at battlefront and move on.

i've got some issues with the module system as well, but certainly have no problem paying a reasonable price for additional quality content. my main concern is that even after all modules are out we'll end up with about 10% of the content included in CMBB, for example.

[Battlefront.com]

Kellysheroes,

Sorry, but I too am one of those once you give me a WHOLE SACK OF CANDY I'm gonna be pretty pissed when you only start giving me one piece of candy at a time.

Would you rather us invent a time machine and take back the whole sack of candy before you ever saw it?

I think this module system is going to get tired before it begins good. People are going to see it's just a donkey milking process of chopping CMBO/CMBB and CMAK into modules and just selling each for some near full retail price.

Name me a game out there that gives as much content as CMx1 games that doesn't use a "module" concept and you might have a case to make.

A lil change in an engine and some more pretty pictures and doesn't even really feel like the old series at all and oh I'm betting $35 a pop for each module.

Heh... I agree with Rollstoy on this one... way to take any credibility you may have had and chuck it right out the window. BTW, I've already stated that Modules will likely be around $20-$25, depending, so you're off on that too.

I didn't buy into CM:SF and I'm not sure I will buy into the rest now after seeing all the issues and problems with CM:SF. It must be pretty bad you can get it for like $7.00 on Amazon.com now.

Well, you just proved my point. I'd rather have 3 years of work be sold for $7 than 5 years worth BTW, discounting is outside of our control and is, unfortunately, following the normal bottom feeding mentality of retail publishing. We'll exercise more control over future CM product pricing.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

76mm,

you're being kind of a nut. the amount of content included in CMBO, CMBB, and CMBO were an aberration, probably never, ever, ever, to be seen again in the history of computer games. view it as a one-time gift from the boys at battlefront and move on.

heh... be careful or you'll be called a fanbois Seriously though, thanks for that. We definitely overdid it with the earlier games, massively underestimating the amount of work that was required to make our specs come to life. That's the problem with being wargamers ourselves... we also want everything and the kitchen sink. But man, kitchen sinks are a lot more expensive now than when they used to be made out of printed cardboard

i've got some issues with the module system as well, but certainly have no problem paying a reasonable price for additional quality content. my main concern is that even after all modules are out we'll end up with about 10% of the content included in CMBB, for example.

CMBB is the toughest one for us to measure up against since it was the absolute worst of the three in terms of looking at the effort:reward ratio. Simulating 4 years of warfare on that scale with so many equipment and organizational changes is daunting for any wargame developer. The fact we managed to do it once is surprising, the fact we won't try it again shouldn't be.

My prediction for the Eastern Front is that we'll get the majority of German and Soviet stuff simulated after a bunch of Modules. However, I think it is unlikely that we'll be doing the Italians, Hungarians, Romanians, and Free Poles (not that the latter was all that interesting compared to the rest). Finns? Well, we know there is a significant market for this so it's probably worth it.

Trust me, I think of CMBB as "perfect" from a content standpoint just like most of you guys do. But unlike you, I didn't have the luxury of getting it all with a 2 minute transaction and a $45 price tag. The bulk of 2 years of my life was spent on that stuff and, as personally rewarding as it was, I simply don't have the energy or incentive to do that again. I'm not getting any younger!

Now, if the grogs were correct that having this vast amount of content was actually what sold the games then we'd be compelled to put it in. But facts are facts... people buy or don't buy based primarily on factors other than how many units are present in the game. Of course, too few and it does become an issue, so we'll make sure to never go the opposite route of too little for the buck.

Steve

[Pvt. Ryan]

Steve, I'd gladly pay $100 for a CM game that simulates the period of 3000 BC to the present. I'll even wait the two years it would take you to make it. But it's gotta have horses.

[Childress]

MORE content? CMSF provides 6 different flavours of Strykers, for chrissakes.

[Battlefront.com]

Even more if you count the differences between those armed with .50s and Mk19s

You are correct, though, that there is plenty of content in CM:SF already. But it isn't WW2 content so that doesn't matter much if modern ain't your thing. And of course it doesn't have horses

Steve

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Childress:

MORE content? CMSF provides 6 different flavours of Strykers, for chrissakes.

Actually there are 9 variants of Stryker in game so if you are going to take a dig at least get it right. In total there are over 50 variants of vehicle available to the player in CMSF, not including command versions, many of which I doubt most people knew existed until they saw them in game.

Guys, its a trade off. If you want 500 polygon models without exhaust, articulated tracks and suspension, hatches, detailed system damage, etc then we can indeed included hundreds of vehicles in each game due to their simplified model. In fact, we already did that and that game is available to you, so enjoy it.

Each vehicle in CMSF takes at least 5 times as long to make as those in CMx1, so its physically impossible for us to include the same amount of vehicles within the same amount of time as we did in say CMBB. On the other hand variants of vehicles are now easier for us to make, such as the various Pz-IV models, so once we make a master model of a vehicle type it will be a lot easier for us to construct an entire family of vehicles. If you look at the CMBO vehicle list you will see that the bulk of the vehicles you guys saw in game were variants of the same vehicle. As such the vehicle list available to the player for WW2, particually when including the modules, should be quite impressive.

Dan

[ March 10, 2008, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Childress]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Actually there are 9 variants of Stryker in game so if you are going to take a dig at least get it right. In total there are over 50 variants of vehicle available to the player in CMSF, not including command versions, many of which I doubt most people knew existed until they saw them in game.[/QB]

That wasn't a dig, Kwazy. The sheer variety of stuff in the game impresses me. Not as copious as CMBB certainly, but very impressively rendered and animated. Congrats.

[MikeyD]

The problem with demanding 'more' is there's no endpoint. However much there is, there will always be 'more' to demand. Lets say they magically did shoe-horn 250 vehicle types into the game (of what sort I can't imagine). Then why no 4x4 Suzuki trucks? Why no Special Forces ATVs parachutted out of the back of C-130s? Why no short fat people represented in the game!

See, 'more' is a very easy game to play. And its a game BFC can't win no matter how hard they try.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I think the WWII game is going to be awesome. I don't see the point of complaining before we even know what its limitations might be. But it does have to have on board mortars. I don't know how it works IRL, but I hate having to wait for mortar fire when I just want to drop a few rounds on a pesky MG hiding in a trench. I really liked the on-board mortars in CMx1. I think you said they will be included, so, they better be. :mad:

[Webwing]

I find it curious that after 230+ posts not a single one mentioned women when talking about variety.

Blonds, brunettes, etc. That's variety. They are in the army these days aren't they? So they should be included!

That's one thing CM:SF can have that would be realistic and that you can't have in a WWII game.(Actually there were women in the Soviet Army... hm...!!!!)

It would be amazing to see MODS by MikeyD, M1TC, and others with the faces of Lindsay Lohan, Jessica Biel, Jessica Alba, and the list could go on and on.

For me this is THE variety I'm missing!

-

[Webwing]

Double post.

[flamingknives]

Mortars, particularly the light "commando" variety, would be a good thing to have in CMSF, particularly with the Brits, as they do have them and use them, and not in an indirect role.

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Childress:

That wasn't a dig, Kwazy. The sheer variety of stuff in the game impresses me. Not as copious as CMBB certainly, but very impressively rendered and animated. Congrats.

Childress apologies, my bad...in hindsight my post actually came across more harsh than it was intended also, I guess I should have added a smiley in there somewhere

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Mortars, particularly the light "commando" variety, would be a good thing to have in CMSF, particularly with the Brits, as they do have them and use them, and not in an indirect role.

Flamingknives/Pvt Ryan, the main problems with mortars up to this point has been a combination of animation, modelling and coding issues. It is certainly something that will be coming into CMx2, as I beleive Steve has mention, and hopefully that may include the UK module. AT guns are also a must of course, which will need similar implementation.

Dan

[M1A1TC]

"Lindsay Lohan, Jessica Biel, Jessica Alba"

First one doesnt float my boat, but the last two I would definatly "mod"

BTW, my Up-Armored Humvee mod has 830 downloads Thats pretty good

[76mm]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

My prediction for the Eastern Front is that we'll get the majority of German and Soviet stuff simulated after a bunch of Modules. However, I think it is unlikely that we'll be doing the Italians, Hungarians, Romanians, and Free Poles (not that the latter was all that interesting compared to the rest). Finns? Well, we know there is a significant market for this so it's probably worth it.

I can live with that, but we gotta have partisans...and mounted cossacks...and female snipers.

[Battlefront.com]

Childress, I got what you said right the first time and I'm glad Dan did the second time

MikeyD, you are completely correct about the fact that no matter how much stuff we put into the game some people will complain. As I've mentioned earlier, just look back and the CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK forums and you'll see PLENTY of bitching about what we didn't include. For CMBO it was primarily the Funnies, for CMBB it was oddball halftracks and fantasy vehicles (Panther II, Maus, etc.), and for CMAK it was things like King Tigers and other things which never saw service within that setting. The fact that there were hundreds of other vehicles to choose from was simply "not acceptable" for a few. Which is why this complaint is a member of the never-able-to-please-no-matter-what mentality. Therefore, we can't give it much credibility. As long as we have enough stuff in there the majority will be happy and it is the majority we wish to cater to.

Pvt.Ryan, obviously I agree that complaining about a game that hasn't even been officially described yet is a bit premature. But that's par for the course with Grogs... give them 1/2 a chance to voice a complaint and they'll voice at least a dozen And yes, on map mortars will be included in WWII. The reason for them not being in CM:SF was only a single mortar (the US 60mm) was sorta within the scope so we felt it wasn't worth the time to get it to work right (the early prototype one we had screenshots of ages ago never actually worked in the game in any meaningful way).

Steve

[Guest Guest]

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[Omenowl]

Funny thing is I probably only cared for 5-10 vehicles types in CMBO. Panthers, Tigers, Shermans, Pershings and Panzer IVs. Then a few troop carrying vehicles such as jeeps, halftracks and trucks. A howitzer or two. I think CMSF has at least the same number of vehicles I was used to.

I think some of the difference for myself was the foxholes, barbed wire and guns.

My hope is you will include in the next marine module some greener terrain. I have looked at some of the pictures in syria and they have some different looking vegetation than what is present in CMSF.

[Childress]

Originally posted by Omenowl:

I have looked at some of the pictures in syria and they have some different looking vegetation than what is present in CMSF.

You may have been looking at pix of western Syria.

[Omenowl]

It was northern Syria and along the coast.

[Micheal Wittman]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Childress:

MORE content? CMSF provides 6 different flavours of Strykers, for chrissakes.

Actually there are 9 variants of Stryker in game so if you are going to take a dig at least get it right. In total there are over 50 variants of vehicle available to the player in CMSF, not including command versions, many of which I doubt most people knew existed until they saw them in game.

Guys, its a trade off. If you want 500 polygon models without exhaust, articulated tracks and suspension, hatches, detailed system damage, etc then we can indeed included hundreds of vehicles in each game due to their simplified model. In fact, we already did that and that game is available to you, so enjoy it.

Each vehicle in CMSF takes at least 5 times as long to make as those in CMx1, so its physically impossible for us to include the same amount of vehicles within the same amount of time as we did in say CMBB. On the other hand variants of vehicles are now easier for us to make, such as the various Pz-IV models, so once we make a master model of a vehicle type it will be a lot easier for us to construct an entire family of vehicles. If you look at the CMBO vehicle list you will see that the bulk of the vehicles you guys saw in game were variants of the same vehicle. As such the vehicle list available to the player for WW2, particually when including the modules, should be quite impressive.

Dan </font>

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Oddball_E8]

Originally posted by Omenowl:

Funny thing is I probably only cared for 5-10 vehicles types in CMBO. Panthers, Tigers, Shermans, Pershings and Panzer IVs. Then a few troop carrying vehicles such as jeeps, halftracks and trucks. A howitzer or two. I think CMSF has at least the same number of vehicles I was used to.

funny thing is i used every single vehicle at least once during the long, long, long time i played the game... simply because i like to try on a varied force, so instead of picking force A (consisting of a platton of tigers and 2 platoons of panthers) each time id pick force F3 (one jagdpanther and 4 panzer IVs of varied models) or force G6 (only light tanks and tank destroyers)

whats interesting and whats not is a purely subjective thing...

if the CMx2 Normandy (working name?) only includes say panthers, tigers and panzer 4's on the german side and only Shermans on the US side i probarbly wouldnt buy the game since id be bored within a month (and i know thats the "standard" in the gaming industry, but im not a 15 year old pimplyfaced boy with twiching thumbs, i am a 31 year old man who likes to take his time and enjoy things in life).

besides... like steve said... most of the vehicles in CMBO were variations of the same model... and since the US side didnt exactly use a varied force when it came to armor (2 different stuart chassis, 1 sherman chassy and 1 grant/lee chassy is all they need as a base for the variants right?) alot can be done with a few basic models...

lets make a (short?) list:

panzer II (lynxs?)

panzer III

panzer IV

panzer V

panzer VI

panzer VIB

all the other types of armor can be based on these chassis with little to medium work (depending on the vehicle... stugs might take the most time i guess)

on the US side we have it even easier:

Stuart early

Stuart late

Sherman

Lee/grant (were they even used in normandy?)

thats, what, ten tank base models? add to that about the same in halftracks and vehicles and well probarbly be fine...

but what im worried about is that BFC will stick to only the panther, tiger and panzer 4 line... and trimming out any "minority" armor or vehicles...

i mean... the infantry comes down to 1 human body model with different skins and different weapons... so we all know that the infantry will be nicely represented (right?)

thats why im focusing on the armor...

PS. i know this comes off as "whining" and such, but it really isnt... its just a statement of fact... and i think alot of the other "whiners" feel the same... the only reason we are "whining" is because we want to buy the game... but we wont if you strip it down to the bare essentials...

[ March 11, 2008, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Oddball_E8 ]

[thewood]

I am a little surprised at the comment that its takes 5 times as long for inputing models. I thought the main point of the new engine was to significantly reduce the time to put new models in, hence more frequent modules with new models.