Vietnam Module?

[YankeeDog]

@ Dorosh:

I was speaking of a module based in June-Sept 1944, Bagration and its follow-up operations specifically, not the East Front in general. As such I think many of the differences you point out, while certainly true of a more general West Front-East Front comparison, are less relevant to the instant case. To wit:

a) "corduroy" roads sometimes built by the Germans in the Soviet Union; no such thing in Normandy (no necessity)

To the best of my knowledge, couduroy roads were not common in Belarus in the summer of 1944, owing to the fact that (a) the Germans had plenty of time to build more durable infrastructure since occupying the area years before and ( the corduroy roads were most necessary in the wet spring and fall months.

smaller buildings in the Soviet Union, huts and similar buildings with flat rooves; larger buildings architecturally distinct from European buildings with gables and arched roofs - simple reskinning would NOT be acceptable as it was in CM:BB

This may be true further East, but in Belarus, pesant huts are generally of wood, and have a peaked roof. Gables are also a common architectural feature in Balarus. If you look at pictures of larger cities in Belarus, you'll find much of the construction is of 19th century vintage, and very similar to Western European construction of the same period. Nevertheless, I will certainly concede that SOME additional modeling work would be necessary to create buildings of the proper flavor for the period. It certainly would not be a "start from zero" project, though.

c) houses of worship in the Soviet Union had distinctive "steeples" (dome shaped) - think the Kremlin - again, not a simple reskinning of a western European church

Having regularly attended a Ukranian Orthodox church with my Grandmother as a child, I am well aware of the architectural differences. Once again, though, the distinctive "onion tower" churches are less common in Belarus, and even when the onion dome is present, it is often smaller and set atop a steeple more similar to Western European designs. The distinctive octagonal-shaped nave of many orthodox churches is also less common in Belarus, and many houses of worship have rectangular or crucifix form. Reference the famous white cathedral in Minsk, for example. While it does contain some architectural elements that are distinctly slavic, I would maintain that in basic shape and style it bears more in common with the cathedrals to its West, than it does the same to the East. With all this said, as with secular buildings, I will certainly concede that *some* new 3D modeling would be necessary.

d) Steppe terrain (grassland) would have effects on cover, concealment and movement distinct from grain or open ground

Steppe terrain does not exist in the areas where the Battles of Operation Bagration were fought. To be sure, there was fighting going on to the South on the Steppes at the same time, but this would presumably be outside such a module's scope.

a) far fewer roads, particularly paved roads in the Soviet Union

no bocage

c) layout of villages, collective farms, etc. would have a feel distinct from western European settlements

These are scenario map design issues, not engine and modeling issues, and therefore irrelevant to the amount of effort it would take BFC to create such a module. They would certainly be issues that those who design scenarios for the new module would need to keep in mind.

One would expect mud to be a significant factor in some Eastern Front scenarios; if this would require different treatment or not in the coding, I have no idea, but it something one hopes would be researched.

Once again, while mud certainly played a huge role at certain times and in certain places on the East Front, it was not a particularly large factor in Bagration, or the follow-on operations. Swamps were, though. Normandy is pretty marshy in swampy as well in places, too. So one would assume that BFC would have already tackled the issues surrounding this type of terrain.

I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that proudcing a Summer 1994 East Front Bagration module would a "piece of cake" once Normandy is done. However, it seems to me it's well within the scope of "module" rather than "new game". Perhaps I am wrong, though.

Or perhaps BFC feels that reaching further afield to something like, say, 1942 Stalingrad or 1943 Kursk (both which I do think would require a new game to do directly from Normandy), would be more interesting and commercially viable. While geater differences in time period and terrain would entail more work on BFC's part, they probably also equate to more value in the customer's eyes.

Regards,

YD

[Michael Dorosh]

I appreciate the time you took to counter my post, but my next serious question, then, is - if a Belarus game would have terrain so close in concept to that used in western Europe, what would the appeal be to the "average" gamer who doesn't speak Russian and already owns the Normandy module? It would be just more of the same, wouldn't it, with different sounding guns and funnier looking tanks?

I think you've already answered that in your last paragraph, naturally.

I am not sure why these discussions seem to hinge on theatres and army-group level operations since the game is a tactical simulation and any real differences seem to be driven by two things; hardware and terrain. Hardware was constant across the front, generally speaking (with the exception of such units as ski battalions, mountain troops and Aerosan battalions - and how fun would those be to see?) and so you're left with terrain.

Stalingrad was marked by terrain, and for that, some pretty distinctive stuff - Mamayev Kurgan, The Grain Elevator, The Barrikady, The Tractor Works, etc. Suitable for a squad-based company game? It would certainly be distinct from Normandy, but "Normandy" could mean anything depending on which units you focus on

a) Airborne Divisions - flooded terrain around Carentan, street fighting, opening causeways

Armored Divisions - tanks fighting in open fields

c) Armored infantry/regular infantry - fighting it out in the bocage

If CM:SF is any indication, you'd have a "campaign" of interlinked scenarios following one battalion from one of these types of units - though you could have one of each I suppose for multiple campaigns, if there was enough talent in the gene pool to generate them. Given the fascination with tanks abundant on the CM:SF disc, and looking at past CM titles, I think we can guess what kind of "campaign" to expect from a "Normandy" title...

If one really had to come up with an idea for an Eastern Front "game", my suggestion would be to pick a specific unit (as was done with Task Force Thunder), find a situation they fought in with some unique terrain and units, and possibly a semi-famous one.

My suggestion would be 101 Jäger Division in the Taman Peninsula.

What's so famous about them?

Well, they were the real life inspiration for the book The Willing Flesh, which was published in English as Cross of Iron, and later inspired the movie with James Coburn.

The military situation itself is unique enough; the Germans are fighting a withdrawal towards ports opposite the Crimea, forced to abandon the Kuban bridgehead - the fighting was recognized eventually by the award of a campaign shield for wear on the uniform sleeve by any German soldier who took part in the defence of the bridgehead, a rare distinction.

The divisional history offers some good glimpses into a variety of combat actions, including urban and hill fighting, and the award of the Knight's Cross to Johan Schwerdfeger, the inspiration for Sergeant Steiner.

But, of course, there are no King Tigers, no JS-IIs, no Pershings, just brave men and cowards thrown together in a chaotic situation and told to make history.

This is why I object to really irksome behaviour on the part of some forum members (not you), spouting off about "Russian Front" this and "Bagration" that - the words have no meaning unless you've studied them, and even then the meaning will be hugely diverse across any group of individuals. Selling a "Russian Front" game is a hopeless proposition. CM:BB sold because it was more or less guaranteed to at least touch on each individual's perception of what the Russian Front might be like because it WAS so all-encompassing. We won't have that anymore, with the limited focus aspect of the new Games, so any dude to whom the Russian Front means "Stalingrad" who goes out and buys a "Russian Front CM" and finds Finns scrabbling in a pine forest and that's all is bound to be disappointed.

Or for that matter, expecting to find Stalingrad, Moscow, Brest fortress, the Pripet Marshes, partisans and Sturmoviks, and instead gets Operation Winter Storm with bald-ass prairie in the middle of winter, or perhaps Belarus which is obscenely similar to Western Europe, will be equally disappointed...

I think anyone suggesting "Eastern Front" topics is pretty much obliged to name a specific formation and location, or just admit they're not in a position to make suggestions.

Your suggestion has the advantage of specificity, which I admire. Personally, you and I know that all other things being equal, we would both buy ANY Eastern Front CM right after a Normandy one regardless of its focus just to get the new units (funnier looking tanks), but as has pointed out on this forum, the poor grogs are no longer the core fan base and they no longer set the marketing agenda.

[ February 25, 2008, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[M1A1TC]

I always love to play any wargame that has soldiers speaking my native language-Russian.

I grew up behind the Iron Curtain watching old black and white movies about the Great Patriotic War, and how we beat the Nazis. Thats why my favorite game will always be CMBB

My family is from Volgograd, that used to be called Stalingrad. Ive been to Mamaev Kurgan many times, walked along the Volga, been to the Pavlov's house museum, talked to my grandmother who worked there as a nurse.

Vietnam War module? Who would feel nostalgic about that conflict that America lost?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

I always love to play any wargame that has soldiers speaking my native language-Russian.

I grew up behind the Iron Curtain watching old black and white movies about the Great Patriotic War, and how we beat the Nazis. Thats why my favorite game will always be CMBB

Not to put too fine a point on this, but having seen all the photos of you and the self-referential comments of the last few days, I have to ask - you really are aware this isn't a homosexual dating site, right?

[DzrtFox]

It's kind of hard to feel nostalgic about a future conflict that hasn't even happened versus Syria also, but that doesn't make it a bad game. I just think the terrain of Vietnam would present some interesting tactical challenges that we haven't seen in very many wargames...

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

I always love to play any wargame that has soldiers speaking my native language-Russian.

I grew up behind the Iron Curtain watching old black and white movies about the Great Patriotic War, and how we beat the Nazis. Thats why my favorite game will always be CMBB

Not to put too fine a point on this, but having seen all the photos of you and the self-referential comments of the last few days, I have to ask - you really are aware this isn't a homosexual dating site, right? </font>

[the Fighting Seabee]

Maybe you guys should settle who is gayer on the battlefield.

I'll be waiting for the results. (not to see who is gayer, just to see who wins).

[imported_mike_the_wino2]

Can't such things be recreated with the tools all ready in game? i.e. reinforcements (random or otherwise) dropped on the map at various locations, like the 'Red Parachutes' scenario from CMBB plus throwing in some minor modifications on the fixed wing aircraft to mimick helo strafing runs?

Of course, I have zero programming skilz so any 'minor' modifications are really easy to do. Chop, chop you lazy pricks.

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

I always love to play any wargame that has soldiers speaking my native language-Russian.

I grew up behind the Iron Curtain watching old black and white movies about the Great Patriotic War, and how we beat the Nazis. Thats why my favorite game will always be CMBB

Not to put too fine a point on this, but having seen all the photos of you and the self-referential comments of the last few days, I have to ask - you really are aware this isn't a homosexual dating site, right? </font>

[Hertston]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

I am getting married in 2 months(to a wonderful woman )

Yeah... they always are wonderful 2 months BEFORE you marry them

I'd love to see a Vietnam module or game, far more than a return to WW2 that will probably stretch over the next five years or so. I know the chances, though, are about the same as Elvis turning up on my doorstep.

[Hertston]

Duplicate post, sorry.

[handihoc]

TC, when you set up your new home (presumably) with your new wife, can I interest you in a finely crafted, authentic, luxurious English kennel for the family pet?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by mike_the_wino2:

Can't such things be recreated with the tools all ready in game? i.e. reinforcements (random or otherwise) dropped on the map at various locations, like the 'Red Parachutes' scenario from CMBB plus throwing in some minor modifications on the fixed wing aircraft to mimick helo strafing runs?

Of course, I have zero programming skilz so any 'minor' modifications are really easy to do. Chop, chop you lazy pricks.

I was thinking more like "slicks" - troop carrying helicopters making in-game landings and disembarkations.

On a related note, I wasn't aware that heterosexual marriage was absolute proof of a person's tendencies; in fact, I've personally known cases, and we've all heard of others, that proved beyond a doubt it isn't. Homosexuals get involved in heterosexual marriages all the time - it's not proof of anything. Not trying to be snide, just honestly trying to understand why every thread in which M1A1 posts becomes littered with photographs of himself and lists of his turn ons and turn offs. If he's trying to attract someone, there have got to be better sites to do that on. I'm almost positive that the majority of respondents here would be like Thomm - slightly appealing in an überbitchy way, but then you get the photograph via email three months into the hot and heavy and suddenly - well, it's a shock is all. So seriously, M1, if you're trying to find a little action on the side, probably something more subtle is the way to go - email behind the scenes works better than self-referential barrages in every thread, especially when you're dragging them off topic by doing so.

Originally posted by handihoc:

TC, when you set up your new home (presumably) with your new wife, can I interest you in a finely crafted, authentic, luxurious English kennel for the family pet?

And THIS is how to subtly start things off, M1 - no resume of his life's achievements, just a tasteful offer to send you a gift. Exchange email addresses and carry on your affair discretely. Good luck to both of you.

[handihoc]

The kennel thing is a joke, started in another thread. Simple as.

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I'm almost positive that the majority of respondents here would be like Thomm - slightly appealing in an überbitchy way ...

Following M1's good example I shall not bite the bait either!

Have a nice day!!

Thomm

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by handihoc:

TC, when you set up your new home (presumably) with your new wife, can I interest you in a finely crafted, authentic, luxurious English kennel for the family pet?

Unfortunatly my fiance is allergic to pet dander Id love to have a dog. Atleast we have a female dog here on forums - Dorosh

[ February 27, 2008, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[Melnibone]

[Childress]

Originally posted by bodkin:

Maybe Battlefront could include a feature like Madminutegames where the trees become transparent in a small radius around known troop locations.

It's puzzling that Battlefront didn't include diaphanous trees in SF. They've been around since the Microsoft Empire games and would hugely facilitate maneuvering. Of course, rendering them properly may present more programming challenges than we realize.

[LongLeftFlank]

Hi Mum (or Mum's/Dad's committed life partner)!!!!

M1A1 is a great forum member, IMHO, and he has put up some really nice mods. So he's a young guy and self-discloses a bit more than folks in other generations/ cultures might choose to do, so what?

Oh, and I generally agree with Mike's (on topic)comments above about Vietnam... Jungle warfare should be perfectly suitable for a company-level wargame, but the current CM engine (and BFC would say, user computing power) doesn't lend itself to it. Pity, really. Terrain is kind of the "third player" in the game.

[MikeyD]

Know what might bring about a Vietnam module? If the base game engine gets so solidly nailed down that producing new games would only be dictated by their ability to skin the vehicles, research the TO&E and build the scenarios. It was always assumed the first title would be the game they'd have the most difficulty dragging over the initial hump. But after that it would (could? should?) be all down hill from here. it'll be interesting to see if the Marine module is plug-&-play to produce or if they have to wrestle it into submission like their previous titles

[vincere]

Me too, would get awoody for CM-Vientnam. Load of atmosphere and 'folk-lore' to help imersion. Also I generally prefer infantry dominant games.

Big question is would it necessarily need on map helos as player controled units?

[the Fighting Seabee]

I have to say, M1's pictures are actually quite relevent and are very cool. I show people my military pics all the time.

I would love to see more cool but relevant pics from everyone.

A Viet Nam mod would be incomplete without helos. Sure it could be done and would only take a little bit of imagination, but still incomplete.

[DzrtFox]

I'm not a programmer so I'm not sure how complicated it would be, but I'm not concerned about real aircraft physics and all... Couldn't helis just be created as vehicles and raised off the ground?

I'm pretty sure in some of the early versions of CM:SF I saw vehicles flying!

[DzrtFox]

By the way, reading back over this thread I thought I'd point out that I finally feel like I'm officially a member of the Battlefront community now that I've started my first thread that contains a Dorosh off-topic debate!

[imported_mike_the_wino2]

Originally posted by DzrtFox:

By the way, reading back over this thread I thought I'd point out that I finally feel like I'm officially a member of the Battlefront community now that I've started my first thread that contains a Dorosh off-topic debate!

You have arrived.

I am secretly hoping that all these 'modules' will allow us pick and choose units from different nations and pit them against each other, regardless of when they actually fought. Something like Firepower . How many front line 1960's Pakistani troops would take to defeat a platoon sized force of mid-80's Spetsnaz*? Or sumfink lik dat.

I can never find anyone with the A)time or patience to sit and play a round of Firepower.

*wiki has informed me that there be lots of different Spetsnaz units but I stand by my previous statement despite this.

[ February 27, 2008, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: mike_the_wino2 ]