1:1 representation and casualties

[J Ruddy]

1. In some situations should AI troopers give first aid to severe wounded causing the squad to pause? and if not why not? (Peronally I think that this should probably not happen if assaulting or advancing as attacks and self preservation provide a certain amount of momentum)

I don't think this level of detail needs to be handled in CMX2. Units can be pinned for a number of reasons, tending to the wounded can be abstracted by the pinned status of a unit.

2. Should Severe wounded be static or movable in CMx2?

All casualties should be static, maybe with the possibility of surrendering when the enemy overuns their position.

[Peter Cairns]

Why would Steve be in his underwear?

Peter.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Yeah, yeah I agree with that idea J Ruddy, being able to capture the enemy wounded when you over run their positions, if not during the game play then deffinately afterwards at the end of the game.

I hope I posted that in the poll, at least I know I meant to at some point, but whether I got around to it or not I don't remember. :confused:

I've found it odd and unrealistic to capture enemy postions (quickly enough) and not pick up the wounded from knocked out squads & teams as surrendered and counted as such in the AAR.

[Battlefront.com]

Because I work in my house and I am too lazy to dress unless I have to go out or somefink. Oh, you meant show ME pictures of Dorosh in HIS underwear... never mind!

The problem with showing serious WIA is that we would then have to do a ton of other things to simulate what happens with them after. Animations for dragging boddies (not easy!), animations for administering some sort of first aid, and the worst is the rather substantial stuff for dealing with the WIA after they have been left behind. In real life there are guys who follow up who move WIA around, so now we'd have to simulate these guys and all that entails. KIA is almost the same, but there is a lot more room for abstraction and still show something.

Don't get me wrong, in theory we would love to have this stuff simulated to the nth degree. We do understand that it is an important part of a battle, so much so that it is almost an entire simulation within a simulation. And that my dear friends is where desire and reality have a really nasty fight and reality winds up winning. We simply don't have the time nor the resources to do a battlefield casualty simulator.

Steve

[Barrold]

Nice summation Steve. I am glad my desparate and irrational threats were correctly interpreted and considered.

The fine points you made highlight the situation well. Of the hundreds of features that could be added that directly contribute to a more realistic simulation of combat, how many would need to be sacrificed in order to accomplish a satisfactory depiction of WIA as requested?

For me the abstraction of this aspect makes the sacrifice of any of the features focusing on the primary purpose of the game unworthy of spending the time to make after action casualties look realistic.

Anyway, whew...now I don't have to ask Dorosh to send me the pictures.

BDH

[Sequoia]

I understand Steve's position completly and accept it, but would still be disapointed with simply having casualties disappear. I would, however, be satisfied with a simple abstraction that didn't do anything, even if it's only a Red Cross marker.

[vincere]

Fair point Steve, after all I also want to concentrate on fire and movement. In which case is there any possiblity of an earlier idea of just having them lay there?

[The Colonel]

I like Peter Cairns' idea for wounded. And I definitely would want killed AFVs to remain on the map. Dead bodies and destroyed tanks add to the immersion...I just like the feeling of satisfaction of moving the camera down a road strewn with the burning vehicles of my vanquished foe.

[Battlefront.com]

KIAs... we are probably going to leave them on the map. The primary reason we did NOT do this in CMx1 was performance. We could not afford to "spawn" figures since it meant significant polygon usage. Plus, with a unit representing individuals abstractly it made no logical sense to have the KIAs represented directly. Bad mix things.

Now, in CMx2 we have soldiers represented 1:1. This means there is no abstraction and therefore having a guy animated or a guy lying on the ground means no increase in polygons. So both of the CMx1 issues are solved. That means it is probable that we will leave bodies on the map where they fall in combat. If we do that they will likely remain there by default (perhaps we can have an option to fade them out). The question remains about WIA vs. KIA.

Dropping KIA bodies on the map is almost a no-brainer (see above comments). Dropping WIA bodies on the map is quite problematic. In this case it might make sense to drop an abstracted icon, like a cross, to show where the guy fell but not confuse people about the ability to do anything about it. If there were an actual wounded soldier figure people would be screaming at us "why can't I move the guy to safety!" and from the immature idjits we always have in these discussions "why can't I put a cap in that guy's head?". Since we aren't going to allow either, then it doesn't make sense to do the 1:1 representation of WIA.

That's our current thinking.

Steve

[c3k]

Steve,

Thanks. (Although, I do think that my idea for skeletons is cooler. )

One quick thought: a cross to represent WIA may be confused with a cross which was used to mark a soldier's grave. Or, are you saying a red cross?

Oh, my crawling torso post was, indeed, an oblique reference to all the differing requests you'll get once WIA are represented 1:1, without consideration of the various gameplay issues that would bring up.

Why not a simple abstraction: all WIA which are not seriously wounded are not counted. The squad stays at full strength. All seriously wounded are treated the same as KIA; immobile, out of the player's control.

The benefit to treating seriously WIA and KIA the same would be the ability to glance at the battlefield and find the kill zones. (That doesn't speak well of my tactical skills!)

Thanks,

Ken

[Tero]

Could the WIA be made out of split squads and have them head out towards the friendly edge of the map when the platoon has sustained enough casualties ?

[jeffsmith]

For me it would be more logical/intuitive

if there was physical "body"representation at all levels

Living --- Represented

Wounded --- Abstract Icon ???

KIA --- Represented

does not seem to be the best solution

just make the Wounded look like a KIA

but lying prone rather than on its back

(or something similar)

Originally posted by c3k:

snip

Why not a simple abstraction: all WIA which are not seriously wounded are not counted.

The squad stays at full strength. All seriously wounded are treated the same as KIA; immobile, out of the player's control.

snip

Ken

Like what c3k said !!!!

[ September 13, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: jeffsmith ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

Maybe a solution for WIA would be to have them lie where they fell (motionless or writhing in agony) and then have them fade away representing their evenutal evacuation or treatment. KIA would not fade away in this case.

[c3k]

Hey, JeffSmith - excellent idea!

In fact, we must'be cross-posted; check two posts up...

Ken

[jeffsmith]

c3k read my edit

[Battlefront.com]

Tero,

Could the WIA be made out of split squads and have them head out towards the friendly edge of the map when the platoon has sustained enough casualties ?

Absolutely not First of all, we can't have dozens of split squads walking around with 1 guy in them. Secondly, if we put them on the map people will want to control them. Thirdly, they will especially want to control them when the AI does stupid things with them, which it absolutely will. Lastly, it puts us in the middle of a slippery slope that we absolutely do not want to be on. Either we do things abstractly or we simulate it in a fair amount of detail. For a feature like this there is no acceptable middle ground.

Jeff/c3k

just make the Wounded look like a KIA

but lying prone rather than on its back

If you are prepared to send me $10 everytime someone asks/complains about not being able to do something with/to the WIA figures, I'll consider it. Otherwise, absolutely not If a soldier is "dead" people don't think "I must do something to recover the body". That is not done in any game I can think of so the expectation is not there. Plus, the virtual soldier is dead so it doesn't have any impact on the game from that point on. A WIA soldier could be turned into a KIA, so people will think "I need to protect/kill those WIA". I promise you that will be the case.

Also, just think of how silly it would look to have your squad sitting right on top of a couple of enemy WIA. The figures are sitting up, looking around, showing themselves to be wounded. And there your guys are all around them and doing nothing. Worse, what if the enemy soldiers are in the best spots to take cover? We can't have two guys in the same spot at the same time, so that will mean your guys will have to sit out in the open while the virtual wounded enjoy the cover.

Guys... it just is a bad idea all around. It isn't going to happen.

Steve

[Gpig]

I likey your posties, jeff/c3k.

Having the WIA be a abstraction seems out of place with 1:1 world view. Though I understand the difficulties in this WIA mess. Not an easy problem to rectify.

Good luck!

Gpig

[Zalgiris 1410]

I'm for WIA to be treated, that is depicted, like KIA in CMx2 though perhaps as writhing rather than just immobile figures to draw the distiction.

For Cm battle time frames I thick leaving them there is a fair enough representation of the time it took strecher bearers etc to come to their aid IMHO. So leaving them there ought to be good enough.

[jeffsmith]

Steve

Respectfully Submitted

as Gpig said

Having the WIA be a abstraction seems out of place with 1:1 world view.

I am not suggestion any WIA animation at all: just a different body position

I would almost take you up on the $10 offer if it was implemented the way I suggest

because I am willing to bet you, you may get more complaints about the abstraction

Just my $.02

You know I respect your experience

Smitty

[aka_tom_w]

I can see Steve's point BUT

I too am uncomfortable with the WIA abstraction..

To be sure this is a thorny issue and Steve's points about players wanting to move/save/or kill the WIA soldiers is valid and real.

No Doubt about that.

BUT there has to be a better way then just a (Red Cross?) icon. I would humbly suggest that if players know that the WIA can go from WIA to KIA unless they "do something" (BUT the WIA cannot be moved) there "should" be an intense desire to protect or cover or "save" the virtual "lives" of the WIA even if we can't move them or transport them.

Covering and protecting the WIA may become a mission objective if players think that abandoning the WIA units will mean they will surely become KIA.

Lets put on our thinking caps....

-tom w

[ September 13, 2005, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[c3k]

Steve,

Hmmm, in an earlier WIA/KIA thread, I posted that I'd like to stack WIA/KIA in front of my positions to absorb enemy firepower. That (mostly) tongue-in-cheek suggestion was ignored.

KIA treatment seems simple: have an immobile "dead guy" unit (one of several poses? No rag-doll physics needed - that will be requested in CMx3 )

WIA seems to be split into two categories: Lightly Wounded and Seriously Wounded.

Lightly Wounded seems to be a trivial case. If the wound doesn't hamper operational effectiveness during the period of the scenario, it doesn't matter. Ignore it.

Seriously Wounded is the crux of all the issues (it seems to me). A Serious Wound would take a soldier out of the fight (argue about degree of ability later). I don't think the majority of players want a Medic Sim.

How then do you treat a Serious Wound ? Different algorithms for different situations? On a successful advance leave them where they fall and let the follow-on forces deal with them; on a retreat, detail members of the squad to carry them back? I think that type of treatment would be far too complex.

If you leave them where they've been wounded and represent them with one of several poses, that would get the idea across. It doesn't have to be the same as the "dead guy" unit. It could be a sitting posture, with a plasma bag dripping from a rifle. Or, lying on the ground with a red cross on his chest. Something clearly visible.

Each WIA figure could be worth beaucoup victory points. That would make it part of the tactical puzzle whether you save/protect/withdrew/capture them. Make WIA targetable.

Moving WIA sounds difficult, unless the entire idea of portaging support weapons and units is enabled for CMx2. (I'm using the PP system from ASL here.) Are you thinking about allowing that?

Now, if you use my skeleton idea, I'll gladly send you that extra $10...

Ken

Edited because the differint forms of "to", "too", and "two" can confuse all of us.

[Michael Dorosh]

So you guys have been living with 3 men representing a squad of 12 for 5 years now, but will have a hard time envisioning wounded men not being portrayed on screen?

Give it a rest, at least until we've seen an ingame movie. Gameplay will focus on what the living troops are doing, not the dying ones.

[Battlefront.com]

Jeff,

I am not suggestion any WIA animation at all: just a different body position

See above comments. I was talking about body positions.

I would almost take you up on the $10 offer if it was implemented the way I suggest because I am willing to bet you, you may get more complaints about the abstraction

I don't think so. We'll get far more people demanding that they can do something with them than people complaining about the visual representation. Most of our customers are not very sophisticated when it comes to stuff.

However, I think you have a small point. I think people will complain about either and some will complain about BOTH. The latter will say "I want non-abstracted figures AND I want to be able to put a cap in their head"

Well.. we can see how it goes in testing, but these issues are not going to go away.

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by c3k:

Seriously Wounded is the crux of all the issues (it seems to me). A Serious Wound would take a soldier out of the fight (argue about degree of ability later). I don't think the majority of players want a Medic Sim.

How then do you treat a Serious Wound ? Different algorithms for different situations? On a successful advance leave them where they fall and let the follow-on forces deal with them; on a retreat, detail members of the squad to carry them back? I think that type of treatment would be far too complex.

If you leave them where they've been wounded and represent them with one of several poses, that would get the idea across. It doesn't have to be the same as the "dead guy" unit. It could be a sitting posture, with a plasma bag dripping from a rifle. Or, lying on the ground with a red cross on his chest. Something clearly visible.

Ken

.

I agree with Ken " Seriously Wounded is the crux of all the issues"

This is compounded by the fact that it has been suggested they could go from WIA to KIA.

This is also compounded by the fact that is sounds like the Seriously wounded cannot be moved in any way.

Given all these parameters the cross icon Steve mentioned is "somewhat" logical but I would say it is not in keeping with the "spirit" of 1:1 representation in the game.

IMHO

-tom w

[c3k]

Steve,

Following up on the idea of moving WIA...

Will units have a number of portage "slots"? Weapons, ammo - of various types, etc., will take up the slots. The more slots taken up, the more inertia the unit has.

Carrying capacity, both weight and bulk, would need to be determined for various units. The obverse, the weight and bulk of various units, would also have to be calculated.

This would, of course, make the introduction of animals much easier in later modules. Mules, donkeys, camels, elephants, horses, dogs, red dragons, space lobsters, all have a certain capacity.

Once you allow non-mechanical units the ability to carry items, the whole world of simulations opens up.

Could an HMG team drop it's out-of-ammo, melted-barrel, receiver-stuffed-with-muck MG-42 and be used as ersatz medics?

How many space marines can ride on the back of a space lobster?

If you go down this road, WIA treatment could be easier.

Ken